Maps,, South, Steppes

[Abbott]

I am looking for a few maps to aid in scenario designs in the southern area of operations in Russia/Ukraine 1943-1944. Any links or suggestions of sources would be appreciated.

[George MC]

Hi Abbott

check this;

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/EART/x-ussr/ukraine.html

Cheers fur noo

George Mc

[Bigduke6]

Hi Abbott,

That Berkley site that George Mc listed is pretty much tops for Ukraine.

For similar maps for the rest of the former Soviet Union, go here:

http://topmap.narod.ru/

If you can't navigate the Russian let me know and I'll try and track down the sheets you need. Coverage is not perfect; sometimes you can find 1:50K, and sometimes even 1:200K is missing. The further west you go, the better the coverage, basically. The Caucauses are covered well.

This next site is pretty exhaustive although it's not exactly easy to find what you're looking for. But lots of stuff:

http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/index_e.html

Finally, if you're interested there's also 1:100K Austro-Hungarian maps on the web, I don't have the site address in the computer I'm working at but if no one comes up with it by Monday I'll send you that too. The maps themselves are primitive w/o proper relief, but they are excellent for water table, forestation, village size and building layout, and rail and road network. They date back to 1908 or 1912 or something. Since Russia had the First Wirld War, a revolution, a Civil War, a war with Poland, and repressions and so on for pretty much entire 1913-1939 period, they're as accurate as anything I've come across on the web so far. Let me know.

[Bannon DC]

You can also look at Google Earth.

Modern day satellite photos. Will give you a general idea about an area. Some of the city areas have good resolution, but most of the former Russian area is lower res.

[Abbott]

Thanks guys. Bigduke very gentlemanly of you.

[Bannon DC]

BigDuke --

I'd love that link to the Hungarian maps. I am particularly interested in Budapest.

Also, I have visited the first site you linked previously, but was unable to read it. I am working on some stuff in the area covering Guderian's initial attacks in June 1941. I am interested in these areas: Pruzana/Pruzany, Kobryn, Baranovicze/Baranovicy, and Sluck. (Belorussia)

Also, along the Luga River at Porechye on the way to Lenningrad.

If you have the time to ID those maps, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks, Bannon

[Bigduke6]

Bannon and Abbott,

I owe you guys a apology, the maps I was thinking of are 1:200K, not 1:100K. Also the source is Hungarian not Czech.

Here's the link:

http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

Bannon,

Before I start ransacking the Russian map archives, could you do me a favor and check with Dorosh? About a week ago I sent him maps I think at least in part covering the area you're interested in. They're sort of slow to download so if you can get the sheets from Michael it would be a lot easier for me.

Let me know.

[Bannon DC]

BigDuke

Incredible map source. I'll check with Dorosh, but I have also found maps of the area at the link you posted above. Those maps appear to be very good and will should satisfy my needs. Basically, in that swampy area, I wanted to see where you would have wet feet or dry feet. Looks like mostly wet feet! (I do have one or two from the original source we were discussing and they are much easier to read).

Budapest maps were OK, but difficult to see details. I'll keep looking.

Thanks,

Bannon

[John Kettler]

Abbott,

There's a book we had years ago called THE GEOGRAPHY OF THE U.S.S.R. which should prove helpful--if you can find it. Unfortunately for your cause, Dad gave our copy away when helping to replace a library in Samoa wiped out by a typhoon. I do have, though, a 1957 FM on Soviet map symbols and terms, so can help you if you need help deciphering the symbology. Their maps are positively info dense compared to ours. Also, if you click the "view catalog" link at the bottom of the Ukraine map, you'll find similar coverage for Georgia, Armenia and the Caucasus.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bigduke6]

Bannon,

I have used those maps, well not the exact ones you are looking at but Soviet 1980s Red Army issue 1:100K military sheets, on a pretty good variety of "real ground: all over Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, and the Caucauses.

My experience, I have found them uniformly to be excellent; as good as military issue maps when I was was the U.S. Army. I have never found the stuff that is more or less permanent, water drainage and relief especially, to be in error.

More than once I have been impressed with the Soviet map makers' ability to pack info into a 1:100K map, where in an earlier life I thought 1:50K was the minimum acceptable detail level for military ops. In short, they are great maps.

The Hungarian maps are useful for three things: first, they give you the wartime name or something alot closer to it than the postwar name; second, it's a quick and dirty way to get a handle on the size and building lay out in the 1940s, and third ditto for the rail and main road networks.

The big minus to the Soviet 1980s-era maps is that the Soviets built like beavers after the war, and the further west the ground, the more they built, drained, urbanised, cut back woods, and so on. So you can't really depend on them for stuff like that, if you're trying to depict a 1940s situation.

[Bannon DC]

BigDuke or anyone else --

Regarding those Soviet maps at the "topmap" and the Berkley site... is there a key for some of the terrain elements? I've looked at many of the individual maps, but they do not have a key on them... I'm assuming there must be a master key somewhere.

thanks

[John Kettler]

Bannon DC,

If you can post a pic/pics of the elements in question, then I'm sure we can help you.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Abbott]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Abbott,

There's a book we had years ago called THE GEOGRAPHY OF THE U.S.S.R. which should prove helpful--if you can find it.

(snip)

Regards,

John Kettler

Thanks John. I have ordered the book and it is on its way to me as I post.

[John Kettler]

Abbott,

Glad to be of service! I believe you'll enjoy the book and find it a fascinating read.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Schrullenhaft]

I have a question for anyone in the know regarding the UC Berkeley Ukraine maps ( http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/EART/x-ussr/ukraine.html ). I downloaded from this source before, but now I can't figure out how to do it. I click on the main Ukraine map and it brings up the smaller 'index' map. However from that point I can't figure out how to get to the actual topo maps themselves. For example if I click on 'Charkov' (sic) on the main map and it brings up the index map and what I want is 'M37-73' for southern Kharkov. How do I get that map now ? As far as I'm aware this doesn't appear to be an issue with the browser I may be using (Firefox or IE).

Thanks to anyone who can provide further assistance.