MAsta_KFC Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I've been tinkering around with CMBB QB's and have recently been having fun with the the SturmTiger. It seems to me that this monster fires mini nukes or something of equal power. For example, I fire it at a Valentine and obviously it and the surrounding troops are eliminated. Yet it seems to me that whole squads which are upto 300m away are wiped out as well. Admittedly they were in open ground, but still seems a bit farfetched in comparison to the rest of the direct fire tanks that the Germans had :confused: I've never heard of this beast existing in the war, although I must confess that my knowledge is quite limited. If it did exist, why didn't the germans use it more? It seems to be a weapon of brute power rather than finesse, but nevertheless an awesome weapon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Captain Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I think this will pretty much answer your question. http://members.aol.com/sturmpnzr/sturmi.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty's Double Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 And in case it isn't obvious from that rather excellent article, the reasons you won't find too many in QBs: 1. With rarity on they are massively expensive. 2. They aren't particularly accurate, and the reload time is vast. 3. They bog like buggers. Still, a great fun addition, especially for premade scenarios. Oh yes, and before somebody else points it out, they actually saw more action on the Western front than the Eastern one, so they should have been in CMBO. Does anyone have the link to the video of one firing, I can't find mine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by Monty's Double: ...and the reload time is vast...True enough, but Charles has been much too generous to the ST. It appears that in CM the reload time is around three minutes. Actually it took about three times that. As a consequence a couple of ST's, with some support, can blow away a battalion of Soviet infantry and a company of tanks. BFC is generally right on target when it comes to accurate modeling of units in CM. Unfortunately the ST's main drawback has not been modeled correctly. This failure makes the ST much too powerful. Lest I give the wrong impression, let me clarify my position on the ST. I was a leading advocate on the ST's inclusion in CMBB and I am grateful for the opportunity to finally command these monsters. However, I hope that BFC will adjust the reload time in a future patch so that both their good and bad points can be exploited. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty's Double Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Snake Eyes. While you're absolutely right on the real reload time, I suspect the times modelled in CMBB are for playability, rather than a mistake. If the game reloads were 10 mins plus, I'd guess this forum would be plagued with "my Sturmkitty is broked, BTS please fix or somefink" threads. Since CM models "compressed" action, the 3 minute reload feels about right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by Monty's Double: Since CM models "compressed" action, the 3 minute reload feels about right.I'm sure you are correct in your assumption that the three minute reload time is for playability. However, when reload times for other weapon systems more accurately reflect reality, the ST times skew its power off the scale. In order to compensate, somewhat, for this issue, I reduce the load-out for ST's to less than half. This forces the player to use the ST more conservatively. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by Snake Eyes: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Monty's Double: Since CM models "compressed" action, the 3 minute reload feels about right.I'm sure you are correct in your assumption that the three minute reload time is for playability. However, when reload times for other weapon systems more accurately reflect reality, the ST times skew its power off the scale. In order to compensate, somewhat, for this issue, I reduce the load-out for ST's to less than half. This forces the player to use the ST more conservatively. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 If I'm reading that article right, it looks like the Sturmtiger was employed SOLELY on the Western Front. Obviously there were also few enough of these babies. And when the crews ran out of ammo--which must have been quite rare--they destroyed them. Anyway, their real life impact on the ostfront was somewhere between minimal and nonexistent. I'm glad we didn't get them in CMBO, since without rarity scores, the dangers of abuse would be great.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: if someone brought a Sturmtiger to the battlefield, I'd cheer. I'd know that the overwhelming majority of his points have been absorbed in a weapon that...Your point is well made, although somewhat overstated. The ST is not a good choice for a QB due to the rarity factor. However, its a great weapon for a 'what if' scenario, allowing players to deal with a very unique weapon system. That's the beauty of games like CM; you can explore like crazy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: If I'm reading that article right, it looks like the Sturmtiger was employed SOLELY on the Western Front...Almost a true statement. At least one ST prototype was used against the uprising in Warsaw in August, 1944. That ST was then returned to Germany. Following this incident Sturmtigers were issued to only three companies, the 1000, 1001, and the 1002 Sturmmorser Companies and used against the Western Allies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Snake Eyes: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: If I'm reading that article right, it looks like the Sturmtiger was employed SOLELY on the Western Front...Almost a true statement. At least one ST prototype was used against the uprising in Warsaw in August, 1944. That ST was then returned to Germany. Following this incident Sturmtigers were issued to only three companies, the 1000, 1001, and the 1002 Sturmmorser Companies and used against the Western Allies. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Snake Eyes: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: If I'm reading that article right, it looks like the Sturmtiger was employed SOLELY on the Western Front...Almost a true statement. At least one ST prototype was used against the uprising in Warsaw in August, 1944. That ST was then returned to Germany. Following this incident Sturmtigers were issued to only three companies, the 1000, 1001, and the 1002 Sturmmorser Companies and used against the Western Allies. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I haven't played with them. But if they are wiping out entire squads 300m from the point of impact, that is just completely wrong. The shell is essentially a 750 lb bomb sent horizontally at 300 m/s. It would have a sizeable blast, but not tac nuke territory, less than the impact of the 500 kg bomb released by a run of the mill Stuka. The crater would be about 8m, give or take. You should see significant casualties only to about 70m, and nothing like total losses for men with any cover even at half that distance. You might see "shaken" and occasional men "winged" at 100m. An "arc light" B-52 strike looks like several hundred of those things going off... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: LOL! So there was exactly ONE Sturmtiger deployed for ONE month in ONE city on the eastern front? Sounds like a more accurate rarity factor would be about 2000%.... BFC had done some work on the ST during CMBO development. However, due to its rarity (18 vehicles) it was given a low priorty. When development time ran out it was dropped from the release of CMBO. BFC then took pity on whiners like me and threw us this bone in CMBB, even though it belongs on the Western Front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I love my Sturmkitties but I don't bring them into games with other players. Just too damn expensive. How many Panthers can you get for the price of one ST? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted January 30, 2003 Author Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by JasonC: I haven't played with them. But if they are wiping out entire squads 300m from the point of impact, that is just completely wrong. JasonC, That's what it looks like to me, and I'm pretty sure. I'm gonna run some map editor tests tonight to see how effective the blast radius really is. Seems totally unbelievable atm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 This has all been discussed to death before. The sturmtiger shell has a much higher explosive filler/casing ratio than a bomb. Hence its obscene blast. As for the reload time, I think a number of people have asserted that BFC put this thing in the game with a tad bit of irony, kinda like, "You want an unbertank, ok--here's an UBER tank, now go play with it and stop bugging us". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Lumbergh: This has all been discussed to death before. The sturmtiger shell has a much higher explosive filler/casing ratio than a bomb. Hence its obscene blast. As for the reload time, I think a number of people have asserted that BFC put this thing in the game with a tad bit of irony, kinda like, "You want an unbertank, ok--here's an UBER tank, now go play with it and stop bugging us". 14inch battleship shell=150 lbs of explosive 380 thin walled mine shell on top of a rocket= 270 lbs of Hexegon(SP?) explosives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuer Art Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The Sturmtiger (aka Sturmmorser Tiger) was actually designed for street fighting of the kind seen in Stalingrad in the fall of 1942. The first prototype saw action in the Warsaw Uprising on August 12, 1944, after which this vehicle was returned to the factory for "fine-tuning." A week later, two more Sturmtigers (possibly the prototype, plus one more?) took part in the fighting in Warsaw. After this, most of the 18 Sturmtigers produced were sent to the Western Front to take part in the Ardennes offensive. At least one saw subsequent action on the Eastern Front in 1945, was captured by the Russians near the Elbe (perhaps abandoned?), and is now on display in the Kubinka museum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Neuer Art: ...At least one saw subsequent action on the Eastern Front in 1945, was captured by the Russians near the Elbe (perhaps abandoned?)... Thanks Neuer for the informative post. Can you provide a source for this info? I would like to add it to my Sturmtiger infobase. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargento Garcia Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Hi all, I did a small scenario with one of this monsters on it, actually is a joy to play with (the battle I mean). If you play as Axis, the Sturm show fast both his power and his weakness. At the Allied side you can beat it with ease (against the AI). And you can imagine how it feels when I listened the first round from a regular T-34 ripping it off About the area of the impact: In an hilly landscape, and with troops in some form of cover, or around buildings or factories, foxholes even, the lethal zone is wider than any other in CM but surely not 300m. If somebody want to play this scenario mail me to jcarballo@noos.fr. Thanks to all who contribute with his time to this interesting and quite funny forum. Juan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I've never encountered a Sturmtiger in CM combat, but just for fun I did a quick Sturmtiger test, to see how lethal it is against infantry. I packed 3 companies of Soviet Recon infantry into a band of woods about 100m deep and 300 m wide and set up a Sturmtiger facing it about 300 m away. I also wanted to see how a Sturmtiger would deal with tank fire, so I set up 3 IS-3s facing it just to the flank of the woods. The interesting results: The Sturmtiger, area firing into the woods, caused 94 casualties with it's first shot. It was then fired upon by the IS-3's. One of the first hits caused gun damage, I couple of shots later it was knocked out (although the penetration estimate gave 0% chance of a kill.) So, we have 94 kills from a single shell. All the squad w/in about 50m of the crater were dead--six dead squads of 11 men each. Two squads just a little further out had lost 9 men each and were down to two live guys apiece. That's 84. The rest of the losses were two whole platoon HQs at 3 each, and one or two HQ members from three more HQs=94 total. But several squads from 60-70m from the epicenter were completely unharmed, as were all squads more than 100m away. Conclusions: 1) The Sturmtiger's round does pack one hell of a wallop. 2. But the effect is far from nuke-level. Being 70-100m away effectively insulates one from harm. 3. The Sturmtiger can be damaged and/or killed by a 122mm tank round (likely to be common in battles invovling the ST). 4. If the ST had had the chance to fire all its 14 rounds into that woods, everyone would have farely soon been dead--there were 263 men OK at the end of the battle, but 3 more well placed rounds would hav killed them all. 5. If you think you might be facing an ST, space out your troops as widely as possible. Use split squads to scout it's locale and withdraw infantry instantly if you spot one--even area-firing on a suspected locale, it can be massively lethal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: ... 5. If you think you might be facing an ST, space out your troops as widely as possible. Use split squads to scout it's locale and withdraw infantry instantly if you spot one--even area-firing on a suspected locale, it can be massively lethal. I would also add: 6. Button up if you expect to be fired on by an ST. If a round hits anywhere near an exposed TC he will be severely killed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuer Art Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Thanks Neuer for the informative post. Can you provide a source for this info? I would like to add it to my Sturmtiger infobase. Snake, most of my info was from memory, as I was interested in the Sturmtiger a couple years ago, and did research both online and in a book or two from the library. I think the book was Tank by Hogg and Batchelor, though I could be wrong. A very good source of online info (and where I updated my recollections today) on German armored vehicles can be found here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zitadelle Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Snake Eyes: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: ... 5. If you think you might be facing an ST, space out your troops as widely as possible. Use split squads to scout it's locale and withdraw infantry instantly if you spot one--even area-firing on a suspected locale, it can be massively lethal. I would also add: 6. Button up if you expect to be fired on by an ST. If a round hits anywhere near an exposed TC he will be severely killed. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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