Footage photo: Stug knocked out by gun. ** Updated Picture !! **

[Bastables]

Originally posted by JasonC:

If Tiger sides were proof, (a much debated point in its own right, but seperable) perhaps they were just higher 1.00 quality (not to mention actually being 82mm, typically encountering much higher side angle since they are side plates, etc). Nothing says one must imply the other.

I'm still waiting for any tactical report or training document that says StuGs and Pz IV front hulls are invunerable to Russian 76mm. I've been waiting a long time. I've looked for such reports myself and I have not found them.

The idea that it was merely "100%" 8,2cm thick armour is fairly speculative in itself as the British in the "winter" 42/43 of North Africa and later Tunisia noted the fall in armour quality of Tigers (along with and in line with poorer PIII/IV armour), in particular of the Tiger weaker RHA side armour.

The beginning of 1943 was the first time that actual measures were taken to improve the anti-tank defence and attack of the T-34 was seriously looked at by the Soviets due to the climbing numbers and devestating effects of upgraded StuGs, PIII and PIVs during Kursk. Highlights include the gutting that 31st and 32nd tank bgds recived at the hands PIVs of 1 regt LSSAH at sub 500m ranges.

It's interesting that you yourself have yet to show Russian or German firing range test showing that the 8cm armour basis is actually permeable to 7,62cm at 500m or any definitive proof on your side of the ledger. As if a lack of definative report means that your view must be correct.

[ August 08, 2003, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by Monty:

I use Paint Shop Pro 6.0

Ok , this is the best i can get at the moment, cant seem to get a more yellowish color :

<Pic here>

Monty

Maybe like this?

Gyrene

[Monty]

Better.....better

We could do a contest, who makes the most realistic looking footage photo

Monty

[SgtMuhammed]

Put a coffee ring on it and you'll get my vote.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Monty:

I use Paint Shop Pro 6.0

Ok , this is the best i can get at the moment...

That's an improvement I'd say, but I still think you should tweak the contrast up just a little bit. This was presumably a Sov photographer, and they didn't have the best film in the world.

Michael

[rexford]

U.S. firing trials against three Tigers at Aberdeen Proving Grounds showed that 82mm side plates resisted a little better than 82mm of good quality Allied armor.

Firing tests against Tiger with 17 pdr APCBC are presented in Thomas Jentz' Germany's Tiger Tanks, Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics;

82mm plates hit at 50 degrees

=============================

no penetration when 17 pdr penetration is 76mm/50 deg.

shot lodges when 17 pdr penetration is 82mm/50 deg.

no penetration when 17 pdr penetration is 87mm/50 deg.

=============================

102mm plate hit at 10 degrees

=============================

shot lodges when 17 pdr penetration is 98mm/10 deg.

A shot lodges when the penetration is a small amount below the 50% defeat limit, so the above tests with 17 pdr APCBC suggest that Tiger front and side armor was about equal to British quality plate.

British statement in WO report collected by John Salt indicates that Tiger armor is good quality except for an occasional bad plate.

Following test results for 82mm side plate at Aberdeen:

plate resists 76mm APCBC hit at 0 deg. like 77mm

plate resists 76mm APCBC hit at 30 deg. like 93mm

plate resists 75mm M72 AP hit at 0 deg. like 90mm

plate resists 90mm APCBC hit at 45 deg. like 88mm

Tiger 82mm plates did pretty well that day.

[Pvt. Ryan]

The pic also needs some identifying info that looks like it was painted on with white-out.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gibsonm:

Serves him right for being flank on and track up.

To say nothing of being silhouetted on a skyline! Sheeze!

Michael </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Right. Got that the first time around. My point was that it is good practice to always stay below the military crest if at all possible, because that's what the eye is drawn to anyway, and to silhouette yourself against a light sky is doubly damning. No chance of going unseen by any unfriendly eyes in the neighborhood.

Michael

[gibsonm]

Perhaps the other vehicles in the batterie will benefit from his mistake.

"Hans over there is burning - maybe Ivan is there after all"

I've seen several junior officers conduct this "recce by burning callsign" on Exercise.

[Michael Emrys]

The ability to learn from one's (or better yet, someone else's) mistakes is a valuable trait. To deliberately commit mistakes in the hope that something might be learned from them has always struck me as an uneconomical way of going about things.

It might have been justified by the overall situation—not enough is stipulated to judge—but to sacrifice an AG to find out where an AT gun is located is undeniably an expensive way to conduct business. It's a great way to run out of AGs before the end of the day.

Michael

[Jarmo]

Recolored and added grain to get an old photo feel...

And a colorized the results to get the yellowish B&W photo look.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

The ability to learn from one's (or better yet, someone else's) mistakes is a valuable trait. To deliberately commit mistakes in the hope that something might be learned from them has always struck me as an uneconomical way of going about things.

It might have been justified by the overall situation—not enough is stipulated to judge—but to sacrifice an AG to find out where an AT gun is located is undeniably an expensive way to conduct business. It's a great way to run out of AGs before the end of the day.

Michael

To plagiarise Oscar Wilde:

"To loose one Stug is unfortunate, to loose two ...."

Recce by burning callsign normally happens when a LT's plan hasn't been thought through properly and its been a case of "CPL Bloggs take you vehicle over there and see what you can see". The end result is the LT is down a vehicle and is no more the wiser because CPL Bloggs has been unable to tell him what killed him.

Luckily so far its only been a case of an umpire telling CPL Bloggs that for him the war is over and he can have a brew, while the LT gets a face riping over the poor employment of his organisation.