Prokhorovka - Finale Scenario

[warlord]

Have just about finished playing this as the Russian against a friend in England (E-Mail game). KOed everything except the Tigers for little loss then charged all the remaining T34s & SU122s en mass at the two groups of four Tigers & lost most for no destroyed Tigers. Even at under 100 meters the shells were bouncing off. The SU122 shells were falling short at 60 meters.( the Tigers were hull down to some)

Question is Guys - how do you kill Tigers with T34/76s ? :confused:

Thanks, Brian

[dieseltaylor]

Luck. Other than that you do not attack Tigers with T34's

Some people believe the 76mm is undermodelled in its performance. Battle reports do show Tigers shrugging of multiple hits in real life but CMBB seems to take it to extremes.

I am sure someone will turn up and quote examples : )

[George MC]

Your only chance against Tigers on an open steppe map is to attempt to swarm em from close in - so you attack from differant directions. That way you might get some flank/rear shots. Doing this you'll also lose a lot of T34s, especially if the other side is using good tactics i.e. someone like another Tiger or platoon of em is standing in overwatch.

Another tactic is to use some T34s as bait - have the Tiger target em then use another platoon of T34s which you have sneaked around to their flank to then engage. You might get lucky and get a M kill (immobilise the bugger) or a damage the gun. Again be prepared to lose some T34s.

Otherwise it's PAK fronts, mines and lure em on using the T34s so the Tigers hang emselves up on the defences.

Some options

Cheers fur noo

George

[JasonC]

First for history, note that actually there were precious few Tigers at Prok, most of them were in the shops long before. The Germans had StuGs and Panzer IVs in some numbers, but you could count the Tigers on one hand.

Second for the reality of killing Tigers with T-34s - they could penetrate 80mm side armor at 500m using APCR. So the game doesn't give them any until 1944. They could also be killed by 85mm - so the game "nerfs" Russian 85mm ammo until 1944 - you will just see "shell broke up" results.

The effective Tiger killers in 1943 are the 57mm ATG, the best at it by far and able to kill reliably at 400 meters, some chance at longer distance with an initial side angle. And the SU-152, which is a large underdog, but will kill it if it hits.

The required tactic with those is to shoot and scoot from a direction the Tiger isn't facing, preferably with it buttoned and shooting at something else, fire one round only, and back out of LOS. (The extreme reload time makes it suicide to stay around for a second). Do not "hunt", the SU will cower without firing if you use "hunt".

The rare T-34/57 is also effective, with T-34 mobility and 57mm ATG firepower. I find the stealthy towed gun more often gets a good initial sight picture, but the T-34/57 beats the standard T-34 by miles.

A captured StuG can also do the job. Similar issues as the Su-152 in terms of vulnerability to replies, but quicker to reload so you can sometimes risk 2-3 shots.

Last, there are various "assymmetric" approaches - Sturmoviks can break their tracks, but will prefer thinner targets they can actually kill. Guns 152mm and upward have some chance of immobilizing - 203mm at a TRP is downright good at it actually, if you catch one there for a minute. Like anybody has those in their back pocket. And the short range ones - hidden AT minefields, RPG tank hunters, pioneers with demolition charges, and flamethrower teams. All can do the job if the beastie gets carelessly close enough.

As for standard T-34s, there are two key things to understand. First, to get even a partial penetration you need a range under 200 meters and a flat side or rear shot. Occasional lower side hull hits a bit farther, but you can't count on them. Second, *a* penetration will not remotely do the job.

The following test result illustrates the problem. Place a buttoned Tiger, turret straight ahead, oblivious. Now put a T-34/76 with T ammo at 100 meters from perfect side facing, 90 degrees off the bow, turret directly aligned and ready to fire. Hit go.

The Tiger is a 3 to 1 favorite to kill the T-34, rather than the reverse. From that starting position.

The reason it low behind armor effect - plenty of "no significant damage" (NSD) results will occur, firing at so large a tank. Some shots may miss outright, others fail to get in, some hit the tracks etc. But the main issue is just that half or more of the hits will be partial pens and those have a high chance of "NSD". With others getting one crew or causing "shock", or just panic, etc. None of which will stop it from fighting.

Then the issue is just that the turret and hull both rotate toward you, so the first shot is best angle, by the time of the second a turret hit can fail from side angle or hitting front plate at a high angle, and by the third the turret is nearly aligned and the side angle to the hull already high. Penetrations therefore disappear after the first couple of shots. But it can take an average of 5 or 6 to actually kill the thing (not kidding, at 100 meters). As soon as it aligns its turret, you can't hurt it and it will kill you.

So, not only do you need to get to the side, close, but you either need to get very lucky - more lucky that you can count on - or you need to get there with an entire T-34 *platoon*, moving as one, not with one tank. 3 T-34s firing from the side at point blank will pump in the 5-6 necessary shots before the critter turns too much.

One last way of killing them, which works especially well when there is only one and you've already done well against everything else. Just forget about penetrations and use "hail fire". That means lots of 37mm AA, 76mm guns on map, and T-34s using shoot and scoot by whole platoons - all send on the order of 50 shells at the thing, within a minute or so tops. About one in eight will hit the tracks or the gun, and a third to half of those will cause damage. Once it is immobilized, many hits in close succession can drive the crew to bailout levels of morale. Or you might get gun damage first, etc.

Hail fire will generally cost you something as it replies. If it is a gun, you don't much care. Forget about trying to use ATRs or 25mm AA though, they don't have enough punch to even cause damage.

Of all these methods, the best is a hiding 57mm ATGs, and the next best are the close in infantry methods, when the enemy is obliging enough to allow them (as, e.g. the AI will be - humans, not so much). The worst is giving it gobs and gobs of high value T-34s to happily munch on.

Indeed, you are usually better off firing at everything else the enemy has and saving the Tiger for the end. It is when it draws all your firepower, *and* kills things too, that the Tiger beats you. Skulk instead, make him come well forward to see anything.

[warlord]

Thanks Guys, Seems as though CMBB is a little out with the ammo used & Tigers are a little tougher than they were historically, I'll just have to accept that. Still a great game.

As I stated I was playing the Prok - Finale Scenario that comes with the game, never played it before now but I wanted something that would give my friend an intro to Tank battles, boy did I get a shock !

There are 8 Tigers & my friend used them like WWI Dreadnoughts, 4 Tigers in line ahead, just like a battleship. The turrets would turn this way & that covering all avenues of approach. Near the end of the game I managed to get 8+ T34s & SU122s all shooting at 1 Tiger at very close range, it took heaps of hits for 1 whole turn & survived! I am about to open up the next file & see what's left of the Russians.

Thanks,

Brian

[warlord]

Back again, just looked at the return move & found that there are 3 Tigers down !!

One from an SU122 at 300 meters into the side of a turret no less ! a 1 shot kill, amazing !

The leading 2 Tigers were hit with a mass of close range fire from the previous move.

A historical result one could say, maybe ?

My Friend is a little miffed as it is turn 27 & the Scenario was for 25 turns...

Thanks again

Brian

[Der Alte Fritz]

Here is an idea (although I am not 100% sure that it works) when playing against friends who both recognise the idiocracies of the game. Delete all the T-34 in the scenario editor, change the date of the game to 1944 (so that you get the correct ammo) add the T-34s back into the game and then return and change the date back again. Can be done with the 85mm gun armed vehicles with chronic shell-break-up-itis to use 1944 version rather than the 1943 versions.

It is a personal preference of mine that I would rather have a slightly tougher tank enemy than have to blunder through minefield after minefield and to get a decent number of Tigers into the game for me to use.

cheers

[Tux]

I'd be interested to know if this works. I'll try it when I get home if no-one else has by then.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

It works. You can change the date in the editor to match any troops/equipment/AFV's that you would like.

You can have Pz I's v IS-3's or BT-5's v KT's.

[Tux]

Very interesting, thanks!