Cemetery Hill-revisited

[walpurgis nacht]

Cemetery Hill-revisited

Remember the pain? It’s been a few years (?) since this scenario has been thoroughly bitched about.

I have not played Cemetery Hill (or any other game vs. the AI) since I bought CMBB right when it came out. I remember I couldn’t crack that damn defense . . . . or even get anywhere close to doing so on repeat attempts. And then I remember the *honest* folk who posted how they actually beat it on their first try (ahem, yeah right Dorosh).

I was thinking yesterday, now that I have years of experience and who can know how many bloody hours of CM game-play under my belt (it must be 3,000+ hours by now), I should give old Cemetery Hill another go and see just for kicks how hard this thing is for me anymore.

I stuck to the “locked” defensive positions, so I had an idea what to expect. I pulled a draw 55-45. I’m now convinced with certainty it isn’t really beatable. Now if I did it again, with the enemy positions fresh in my head so I setup to make sure all of my supporting firepower units were in the most efficient startup positions to be where they were needed quickly, I could probably do a bit better. But, the realistic test is how you can do without knowing where everything is ahead of time!

[Andrew H.]

Perhaps it should be renamed Kobiyashi Hill...

I've never done better than a draw, either (and that only once), but it's still one of my favorite scenarios.

[Generaloberst Guderian]

The real problem for me was the time limit. After I read the thread I gave it a go for the first time...and fought it to a draw. My strategy was as follows:

I deployed the 75mm M1918 Infantry gun, along with the 2 HMGs to the far forward right, near the end of the woods. Then, I setup the platoons so that the recon squads would provide overwatch, with the Pioneer squads in reserve.

I then positioned the Armored cars so that they would be at the edge of the wood, drawing enemy fire.

As soon as the game began, I killed a Russian gun with my 75mm and neutralized his forces in that area. The HMGs and armored cars began firing and for several turns it looked like I had the upper hand, winning the battle of attrition by far.

About halway through I used the halftrack to a flamethrower team forward. Although the team was killed, they lit 2 building on fire, denying the enemy that cover.

During turn twelve the 75mm killed one of the Russian MGs, and the armored cars, while doing next to nothing, were keeping all the fire on themeselves, allowing my infantry to fire upon the defenders with impunity.

During turn 17, I moved the first of the recons squads across. They killed 2 mortars and an enemy infantry squad, and set up a position overlooking the remaining defenders.

On the final turn I had the pioneers over unscathed with full ammunition. Had the scenario continued I would have won for sure.

Here are the pictures:

As you can see, their position was more or less broken, as both MGs were dead. I still had ammo for both of mine, along with 2 of the 3 armored cars and the Pioneers. Given another five turns...maybe.

But I'd agree, in the time available, winning is next to impossible.

Here was the final count: (German/Russian)

Men OK 110/95

Casualties 29/76

KIA 7/16

2 mortars destroyed

1 gun destroyed

1 PSW 222 4-Rad lost

49%-51% Draw

Enemy kept point for holding flag. Perhaps the only way to force a resolution would be to at least get a "?" over the objective by the time the round ends.

[Gpig]

Nice work. That's a win in my book.

[Glider]

I mentioned to a young guy I know that it was a very hard scenario. He started playing CMBB and (he is that kind of guy ) and after about one month he sent me a game file with 70something:20something victory. I think he was playing the bloody scenario the whole time

Now he is trying to crack Von Lauchert...

[Generaloberst Guderian]

I gave it a second try and was able to win decisively. I reevaluated what I tried the first time, and I found some things I liked, as well as some that I didn't. Using the Armored Cars to draw fire was a good idea, but I placed them too near the infantry, meaning that my overwatch troops could never attack, due to enemy suppression. For the second round, I decided to move them to the far right flank and attack up the road, with the MGs being in the left position that the Armored Cars had the last time. Finally I placed the Infantry Gun with the MGs, but with a change of tactics--I used Area Fire vs. the buildings and scored 26 casualties and 1 gun kill, making the 75mm the decisive support weapon.

The armored cars attacked up the road supported by one recon platoon, and together they killed 2 infantry squads, 2 mortars and a platoon HQ. Meanwhile, the HE from the gun as well as the MG 34s killed both Russian MGs. It was at this juncture that I tried my new strategy.

With the MGs taken out and my own overwatch of 2 HMGs, an infantry gun and 3 armored cars reigning supreme, I launched a frontal assault on the trench from the woods, and took it losing only the flamethrowers.

After 3 turns of shootouts, and a little maneuvering, I decided to attack again, as the Russians seemed off balance, with nothing really pinning me down. On the 17th turn, I launched a frontal assault on the Church, took a few casualties getting inside, but once it was taken, the Russians squads faced superior firepower from an unexposed location.

Here are the final results:

Major Victory

OK 98/62

Casualties 41/109

KIA 9/32

2 Mortars destroyed

1 Gun destroyed

Flags -- 300pts

Casualties 799/332

77% --23%

**Edit**

Forgot to mention that the point is, as you said, its a very hard thing to do without having seen the defenses before, but keep in mind that repeating an assault attempt isn't all that uncommon. As they say, try and try again.

It also occurred to me that there is a conspicuous abscence of artillery in the scenario--which I guess is the real appeal, having to attack without having everything all lined up. Still 81mm support could've tipped the scales for sure, and 105mm + would probably smash the Russians outright.

[ May 25, 2005, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Generaloberst Guderian ]

[SteveP]

I also got interested recently in retrying this scenario again, along with a few others that had given me trouble in the past (like the Omars operation in CMAK). This time I realized there was a way to play it that almost made it certain of getting a major or total victory, depending on when the clock ran out. The tactic does rely on knowing some significant things about the defensive setup, of course, and the German has to be very efficient and frugul with firepower and ammo. It also relies on taking advantage of a quirk in the AI's behavior (yes, another Stupid AI Trick). Finally, you need a reasonable amount of luck - but that goes along with having such a tight timeframe.

It appears that we're not too concerned about spoilers in this thread, so I won't worry about it either.

The approach I take is to divide my forces into three groups. The first group is a firebase consisting of the ACs, the HT, the IG, the HMGs, the ATR, the two mortars, and the Section Leader to provide command and to spot for the mortars. The job of the firebase is to clear the trenches that are closest to the far right end of the setup zone, using direct fire (not assault by anyone). Their job is also to shoot up any Russians trying to reoccupy those trenches, and to move up and provide supporting fire once you occupy those trenches with your Recon platoons. (The ATR is there to take out the MG bunker when it shows itself, with help as needed from one of the ACs. The prime job of the mortars is to take out the 45mm ATG when it shows itself)..

The second group are the Recon platoons. Their job is to occupy the trenches as soon as possible (hopefully starting around turn 7-8), with a full or nearly full load of ammo and minimal losses (smoke from the IG can help cover the advance into the trenches). In short, the Recon platoons don't shoot into the trenches (and thereby use up what little ammo they have). They shoot out of the trenches at the Russians trying to recapture that position.

Which is what the AI will try to do, and thereby walks into a trap.

The AI will send forces at your Recon platoons from elsewhere along the trench line. You need to hold them off with the help of supporting fire from your firebase units. The AI will also (and this is the Stupid AI Trick) attack the trenches using the units that started in foxholes in the woods north of the cemetary.

As soon as the AI has committed these units (the ones from those woods) to the counterattack, you come up behind them with your third group - the pioneers - who have been hiding in the wheat field in the upper right corner of the map. Late in the game (maybe around turn 14-15), they advance across the wheat field toward those vacant foxholes. The Russians trying to retake the trenches get caught in the pinchers between the Recon platoons and the pioneers. Within a relatively short time you can totally destroy the whole northern half of the Russian force.

At that point, it becomes a relatively simple matter of safely taking out the 82mm mortars (which have the ability to kill an AC, by the way, so you need to watch out for them), and assaulting the church.

After figuring this approach out, the first time I tried it I got a Total Victory in 25 turns. I was even able to safely walk up the flamethrowers who got to do some damage to Russians trying to retake the church. I've since gotten more effficient in using the available time and keeping German casualties down.

I don't think you can win this scenario against a human as it stands, though. It might be possible if you changed some aspects of the scenario - in particular allowing setup anywhere on the eastern half of the map, and adding more time.

[Andreas]

Well, if nothing else, I got replayability right.

[SteveP]

Actually Andreas, once you figure out that the scenario is really an assault, not a *probe*, and that the attacker is at a points disadvantage, it provides one of the more challenging tactical problems. It's a very good learning experience. In particular, you really have to be very smart about using and allocating the different types of firepower, about conserving ammo, and about segmenting the defense into bite-size pieces. Even having those skills, though, I think you'd need more time (like maybe 30 turns) if you were playing it cold, so you had time to redeploy once you learned more about what you were facing.

[Generaloberst Guderian]

Not only do I concur, but I like your approach better than the one I took. I'm not necessarily a fan of a direct assault over open ground, and it only worked out because I was lucky and no Russians were in a position (or condition for that matter) to fire back at me.

Normally the attack chooses the path of least resistance, and in my case, the direct assault was that path, but I think that your firebase plan is much less dependent on the situation, and should yield good results every time.

[Paul AU]

"Remember the pain? It’s been a few years (?) since this scenario has been thoroughly bitched about."

Has it? (I just checked the pics, to make sure we were talking about the same thing….)

That makes me feel good, because I won it first (and only) time around. I loved the map especially - it inspired a few 'mini' maps of my own. It was one of the most enjoyable scenarios on the game-disk. Small but interesting. (And not too weird).

I think it was the only time I really did outflank and ‘flame’ a bunker…

Granted, things got a bit desperate towards the end…. And time-pressure caused a few 'letters-home'….

But I’d rate it very highly as a scenario. Hard, fair, no ‘silly’ suprises, no ‘forced’ moves. It was what it said it was.

Excellent.

[Shmavis]

Well, it certainly is comforting to know that I wasn't the only one frustrated by this scenario. Usually, I just ran out of time, too.

[llama]

Talking of checking the pics, can the two gentlemen who announced victories in this scenario please conform that they were playing with default setings for the AI?

The reason I ask is that in one of Mr. Guderian's screen shots the mines are right at the back of the playing area which suggests he was playing with the AI free to place units.

The actual challenge in this scenario is to win against Andreas's defensive set-up. Beating ther AI's attempt at a defense line is a much easier proposition.

Cheers

[Generaloberst Guderian]

Hmm...I don't see any mines in either of the pictures (aren't those crosses in the cemetary)?

You are right though, I was playing with allow computer to place units, which is what it is normally set as. I don't recall a section of the briefing specifically recommending default settings, but after reading your post I examined the default setup. Indeed, it is substantially more formidable than what I encountered and should take the challenge of the scenario to a whole new level.

[SteveP]

I have only played against the default setting. That's both good and bad. On the one hand, the default setting is formidable. On the other hand, once you played it a couple of times, you know how to organize the attack, which may or may not be *fair*. As an interesting side note: I no longer run out of time when I play this scenario now. What happens is that I get an automatic ceasefire. This puzzled me for awhile, until I figured out that this is happening because the Russian has run out of the Global morale, while I've gotten somewhat low on ammo. For some reason, Andreas set the parameters for this battle as a *Meeting Engagement* which means that you don't have to get down to your last bullet for CM to consider you low on ammo.

[Generaloberst Guderian]

Hmm...I didn't know that ammunition governed when you will get an auto-ceasefire, although I'd assume that you'd fair better than the Russians in such a scenario, as morale is probably more important than not having ammunition.

[SteveP]

AFAIK, you can get an auto ceasefire from either loss of Global morale or from getting low on ammo. The difference is that the threshold for when ammo gets too low varies by type of battle: i.e., for a meeting engagement the auto ceasefire kicks in when you still have a fair amount of ammo left, whereas in an assault, your troops will fight until they run out of ammo. This particular scenario is quirky because the German pretty much has to use up all his ammo to break the Russian defense. Also, I've found that the Russians tend to rush off the map, since the map edge is so close - ergo, rapid loss of Global morale.

[Paul AU]

...please confirm that they were playing with default setings for the AI?

Ah, no, I can't confirm that. It was a long time ago...

"...suggests, playing with the AI free to place units."

Quite possible in my case. Perhaps that explains it.

(Still a good scenario, though...)

[Glider]

That guy that managed to consistently achieve 70+% wins was plaing with default settings.

[stikkypixie]

I have won this one if I allow the AI to choose its positions, but on default...

[llama]

Originally posted by Glider:

That guy that managed to consistently achieve 70+% wins was plaing with default settings.

In which case I take my hat off to him and hope we never meet in battle.

Cheers

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by llama:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Glider:

That guy that managed to consistently achieve 70+% wins was plaing with default settings.

In which case I take my hat off to him and hope we never meet in battle.

Cheers </font>

[SteveP]

Ahhhhh ... so it turns out you were only interested in hearing from people who beat it the first time I think someone would have to come equipped with ESP to do that.

If like me you assume the description of the battle as an 800 point "German probe" is reasonably accurate, it comes as quite a shock to discover trenches, a bunker, foxholes, minefields, etc. (I know there's a reference to "strongholds" in the briefing, but it's pretty ambiguous). So, once you figure out it's really an assault, you try it again. At some point, perhaps in the second attempt, you discover that the Russians have a force pretty comparable in size to your own, not counting the fortifications In fact, you're the one with 800 points. The Russians have a lot more than that. Oops.

Under those circumstances, I'm willing to give myself a mulligan or two. Not that I beat it the third or fourth time either

Anyway, I now get at least a major victory every time, just like playing the AI in any other scenario (and for largely the same reasons). It doesn't really require knowing the "precise" locations of everything, although I do take advantage of the fact that I know in advance about the trenches with MGs and Infantry, that there's a bunker next to the church, and a gun in the woods. But hey, I'm commanding a veteran recon force! That has to count for something