Liam Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Last few games I've been playing I have come to realize a few things. First of all "tech" is obsolete against an aggressive German Player. It costs a lot and you take a lot of risk to get Jack in return. So if I feel my enemy is investing there he's in great trouble of losing quickly...if he also wants to defend France. It's a very complicated Juggling act for the Allies that have forced out a bunch Gambits Norway/Spanish/LC and hinge their chances of victory on that. If that doesn't work the only chance they have of Victory is 'perfection' If I am playing German I have 2 possible ways of a victory. Kill England or get a Bunch of Minors and outtech and outbuild my enemy. That's it... Russia has become too much of an Axis Risk. Why fight an uphill battle where your enemy has an MPP advantage? And time on his side...The longer you give Britian time to develop Jet tech and USA to build up for a Second front anywhere the more chance you've got to lose. The fact is if the Allies abandon France too early then I will build up "sooooo" much Minor plunder/MPPs you'll never beat me in the end.. It'll be a stalemate if you're very good...and it'll be a NON-STOP corp warfare... Well it was in Hubert's design to use Jets to prevent this, but it doesn't work... Any good Ally or Axis knows how to stop Corp Warfare...Just takes "FOREVER"... Time to increase the attack strength of Tanks, or increase Hexes on the Map. The USA is "SuperWeak," in SC. It's weaker than Italy... In fact once you knock out Britian, the game is over in the Pacific and you just wait till you're the MPP leader and go at a Minor sucking job against the USSR. Which is somewhat a tedious game from there on out... Is this reality? Hmmm. Actually WW2 used the combination of Motorized/Mech Infantry, Mobile Armor mixed with Aircraft to cut through nations like Butter. We need to diversify the battlefield for Germany and Russia... France never had the opportunity to use these advantages and shouldn't... We need to cut back on the redicilious ability of every nation to be an Amphibious Fool. When I see 20 Russian Transports in 1941 weighing around the Baltic I want to laugh cause in WW2, the Germans would've thrown a few 100 captured Farmilie Bs and completely decimated them. You want Realism and History but you want playability... Although you need to diversify and sometimes increase detail. It won't neccessarily hurt the game that way to add more rules, options, units. If done correctly you can actually do the opposite... People just are afraid of the HOI syndrome. Well SC is not like HOI, it's a completely different Interface and has no possability of being one. Although against a good 1v1 SC game. It can take as long as a HOI game takes to finish an SC game so you can see my point or can't you? Lordy do I have to speak till I'm blue in the face on the subject or rather, suffering from tendenitus?sp Nuff Said Liam [ October 31, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Liam ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Long post short answer...i see your point..you are absolutely rite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 As others have suggested a chance for unexpected events might offer a partial solution. - UK Falls > US Gets Pacific Fleet, UK Fleet close to Europe or North America become Free Brits, UK Capital Moves to Cairo, UK can still build units. - UK Supports post surrender partisans in Russia [ October 31, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 I had a long responce but by connection was lost = so here is the short responce. Your right - but what are you asking for? Use some house rules to bring the game to historical reality. I strongly suggest the forced Siberian Transfer - You would be surprised how much this changes the game. The axis MUST learn how to use armor to get this goal, the axis have a time limit so they will feel the 'sting' of past mistakes. An aggressive UK will be rewarded for exellent play and not penilized by the delay ST/Late Sealion 'trick' that most people now use. Liam, I would be happy to play you in a few game to 'test' differnt things/plans - PBEM or IP. Drop me a line if you want to discusee this. Or we can read more posts on cheating - heck I might even do another search to find more of the interestng little bastar%&$. BTW - if the axis play only to WIN they have one true plany and it works every time - Cookie Cutter - great idea but boring to play for or against. A few more hits on my crack pipe and I'll be in heaven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 IMHO, the best thing to do to even out this game is not the current bidding system. Although it works, I find it to much "off" history. Give USA the big starting $$$, 2000 minimum MPPs. They were the production machine of WW2 by a longshot, in SC they are just a blimp. Russian can hold a line with its current MPPs and once USA joins with all that $$$, at least it makes the Germans having to prepare for the invasion like they did in WW2, now you just leave corps on cities and wait to the last minute to "op" a few units to defend France. That is my preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Blashy --- Right on brother, the US is being disrespected in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 Give the USA a strategic bomber or two. That way, coupled with the British one (if it hasn't been sold) the allies can launch the historically accurate bombing campaign against Germany, something that just doesn't happen enough in most games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by Bill101: Give the USA a strategic bomber or two. That way, coupled with the British one (if it hasn't been sold) the allies can launch the historically accurate bombing campaign against Germany, something that just doesn't happen enough in most games. Even with 3-4 bombers, they really suck in this game and are way too costly to repair for the damage they do. Another little thing that needs a tweak so SC is not a Air Fleet / Jet research / Army game at its core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Why not just give the US Industrial Tech Level 5 so that the cost of US units is reduced by 25%, this is equivalent to 25% increase in US production. PS: Just played an exciting game. The Germans and Italians both fielded a large navy and the battles in the Atlantic were most exciting with high casualties on both sides. The Axis were targeting transports and the Allies where hitting the attacking Axis ships. The US and Germans both used bombers to hit ships that ventured within range. [ November 02, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Edwin P No one likes the idea of any nation having a Industrial Tech Level of 5, because based on the "catch up" feature, those who invested in Industrial Tech would achieve TL5 themselves much faster. So eventually that advantange would be lost to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Shaka of Carthage Thanks for the information, I had not thought of that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 Easy fix for this. Edit in 2 US Bombers. 2 more US Battleships. 3-4 US Cruisers. House Rule being however that the surplus US Fleet may not be removed from US Coastal Waters unless to protect Canada/or an Invasion is planned of the USA/Similarly the Italian Navy smashes through Gibraltar and threatens UK Mainland... Also another House Rule I'd like to see implemented a limitation of transports per Support Surface ship. For in real war no Transport blindly transported itself out into the great White Oceans... Perhaps 4 per Battleship, 2 per Cruiser... Within an Area of Operation. 4-6 Operational Hexes??? Also giving the US, Patton from turn one with some IT, Heavy Bombers, Long Range bombers. As well with England. Bombers that can reach berlin... Reality Also giving the UK JET1 to start with... doing away with all Bidding... Iron would gladly like to come up with a mod that settled the true power of Each Nation.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Strategic bombers do become rather effective when they have reached level 2 or more of research, and are in good supply with a HQ. Have an air fleet to act as escort and they will soon reduce Axis resources to ashes. Repairs are expensive (it was in real life too, which is why the bombing strategy is still debated) but the damage they do will steadily reduce the Axis economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 Bill, Problem is they're 'expensive' to make... so maybe in a 'long' game they're effective. I should trial some bomber strategies against rooks just for fun although I wouldn't trial a bomber strategy against an advanced player? hehe, if that's an indicator of their actual real power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Iron would gladly like to come up with a mod that settled the true power of Each Nation.. If you would like to work something up, that would be fine. But for Mods, Shaka and Bill have done alot of work on this and have several different exellent solutions. I personal don't mind the std senerio, but anything made by man can be improved on. I'm more into the use of HRs to bring the game more into reality/hitorical play. I feel there are three ways to play the game: Compitision: Rambo and Terif would be the best example here, winning and where you stand incomparison to others matters most (but fairly) Historical: Shaka would be best here, following the historical paths and stoping the explotation of 'glitchs' in programing is key. Fun: All casuial players, they are looking for a good time but get depressed/disapointed when they see what they feel is cheating by people that work within the game program but outside the poorly written manul. Your opening post rambles on a bit, so my question again is "what are you looking for?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Also giving the US, Patton from turn one with some IT, Heavy Bombers, Long Range bombers. As well with England. Bombers that can reach berlin... Reality Too many people are confusing 1944 USA with 1942 USA. In SC they start with WAY too many ground units and WAY too small of a navy. The problem is most people (including me) don't have the paciance for the long game. Coupled with need to play 'perfect' and the ease that all of us conceade makes you want to finish the game in 1942. When in reality if the axis are doing good, you will not turn the corner on them till 1944 and hopefully'win' by 1946, if they make some mistakes late (early ones don't matter 90% of the time). USA forces in 1941 Army - 16th in the world - Rominia was #15 USA should start with 1 corps and 1 army Navy - #1,2 or 3 depends on how you count strenght. In SC they are #6 of the six great powers. Done for play balance due to the small Alantic and the need to give the Germans a 'chance' at winning the sub battle. They should start with 4 and maybe 5 capital Warships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Question: At the start of WWII were most of the US capital ships in the Pacific or the Atlantic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 4, 2003 Author Share Posted November 4, 2003 Iron: Although the US Forces as you say were so small at that time. They weren't fully mobilized and how did US Armament Output go from '41 to '42? They made a lot of the equipment that other nations used.. The fact is that there is no way in SC that they can catch up. If the US had to within 6 months what do you feel they could mobilize fully? I'll take a wild guess and say the 3rd strongest Military in the World... and that's probably underestimating them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 4, 2003 Author Share Posted November 4, 2003 a game that is truly in the spirit of a WW2 Strategic Game... the reality is in WW2 Germany had 3 choices at Fall of France. Invade England, Invade Russia or remain neutral and defend till they were too powerful too stop. the last being likely the wise choice house rules to enforce this and do away with all trendy gamey moves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 #1 - Ask Shaka - he has all the numbers on this #2 - IMHO - Force the Siberian Transfer - what your asking for will fall in place normally, a rule on seaborn invsions is nice also - I left a post last week on how I would do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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