Jollyguy Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I say stick with things for the tourney just as they are. We could change it for the next tourney. One thing I would like to see in the regular 39 scenario is the US and Russians starting about 10 points on war readiness. Players could mod this themselves. I don't think the Germans should be able to rampage across the board, and have the Russians sit virtually idle. I think a realistic adjustment to readiness in SC 2 would be that for each DOW the Axis does, readiness goes up by an increased factor. This would balance the game at both ends. If the Axis is very aggressive, he'll draw in the US and Russian earlier. If not, he gets less mpps to play with. I also really liked Iron Ranger's idea that the Siberian transfer should be fog of war. That's one of those simple ideas that you wonder why it wasn't thought of before. I don't have too much trouble with how the Siberians are triggered now, though. Although, I would like to see the Siberian Army be a bit larger, maybe with some mpps also. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I agree with you on Siberian transfer. I'd also like to see the Russians ask for the transfer early, if they want, but at a penalty. I also agree on having war readiness go up exponentially as each country was invaded. Maybe something like this: War readiness up 2% for Poland, 3 Denmark, 5 low countries, 8 Norway, 12 for Sweden, then 17 for Vichey, 23 for the next country(70% so far), with some randomness thrown in there, of course(thus it could have been between 60-80% so far). I think the bidding system for games should be based on war readiness instead of adding MPP's. This way the early game isn't influenced with England getting too many MPP's. I could see some axis players bidding up to 40% for the right to play axis(that would make things interesting with the U.S. & Russia already starting the war at 40% war readiness. Maybe future tournaments should also allow the players to bid on the game to choose sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 bidding on which side--interesting concept! i like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 COMING ACROSS THE TELETYPE JUST NOW----I'd like to confirm an allied victory for peace ,as Gavrok ,versus the evil empire builder, Mr Grills. Churchill celebrates with a whisky upon recievng the unconditional surrender attached below. it appears joe grills has conceded unilaterally to gavrok. sounded like an exciting game! gavrok winning as allies advances to round 2! congrats one and all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 mar 16,1941 frenchmen circle about paris as the stormtroops surround a group of 4-5 armies and corps. no quarter is asked, and none is given. some "philosphers" amongst the german armies wonder "where have the canadians and the british gone?" "where are your allies?". an offshore attack on a condor legion in norway, led to the "courageous" and the "king george V" being spotted and attacked by 2 different wolf packs. new MARK III subs were involved for the first time. king george took 70% damage, and courageous took 80% damage. whether they can escape to port or not, remains to be seen.there was a huge victory celebration at berchtesgarten last night! we are confident our boys can evade and escape! last turn the bulgarians stopped wavering and sided with the eventual winners. this turn france falls, vichy france is set up. usa 35% ussr39% [ June 18, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: disorder ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 They did escape and both sub packs were wiped out by the RAF which currently dominates the skies over Scotland. Marseilles falls to the Italians but Vichy Afica is reinforced by crack RAF squadrons which clear the Corsican skies of Italian kites, and allow the French Fleet to join with their RN brethern. According to the war report the Axis fleet now consists of 1 unit (a heavily armed dinghy). Yugoslavia holds out, following the brave French example. Churchill celebrates a free and strong Africa and invites his numerous Free French units to throw garlic at the dirty hun only 1 hex away across the Channel, while Mussolini is reduced to counting how many corps he has and how many turns it is before he can build anything else. Elsewhere, where is that Hitler going....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 terry said-- Churchill celebrates a free and strong Africa and invites his numerous Free French units to throw garlic at the dirty hun only 1 hex away across the Channelbeen a good game so far! good post! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavrok Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Just a quick summary on the Gavrok (Allies)-Joe Grills game. France fell in double quick time (Jan40) to a very scary German attack, however 6 free french transited UK onto Stockholm in double quick time, knocking Sweden out for July 40. This was due to the Allied elimination of the total Axis fleet for Jan40. After Stckholm the French just couldn't resist Helsinki.....as just a quick dash over the water. Meanwhile German and British aircraft dueled over Denamrk for several months, until some carriers came along to vote for the good guys. Spain and Vichy North Africa decided to join Winston as well, and at this point Mr Grills threw his resources into Russia to liven things up. I'd like to thank Joe for his game as Axis, as he really showed me the best way to take apart France. I also learnt how strong tech 2 navies are as the Royal Navy kamikaze attach proved amazingly successful. All in all a game that didnt let up, thanks to an opponent who wouldnt stop rolling those dice. Bye G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 impromptu nomination for best sportsman award! GAVROK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reepicheep Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Just completed my game with Tigleth. At turn 50, he conceded, making it an Axis victory. He was a fine opponent- quite a pleasure to play. Good game! A brief AAR: Poland, the Low Countries, and Denmark were quickly conquered in the matter of a couple turns, as I recall. I then set up to take Norway while the campaign in France was still underway. German air superiority proved devastating in France. The campaign there was halted for a turn or so as a massive naval engagement occurred near Norway after it fell. The German navy was mostly destroyed- but much of the Royal Navy went to the bottom as well due to air support. As I recall, most of the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean met the same end. After that, U.K. troops were evicted from Norway, while France was overrun. Greece had been finished off, while an attack on Tobruk was repulsed through a series of good rolls on my part (Tigleth really should have gotten it). I took Vichy France, but left Spain alone, as the U.K. appeared to be remarkably empty- and I was thinking of doing Sea Lion. (Turned out to be a mistake to not take Spain.) I used my navy to lure more of the Royal Navy to its doom, pounded the English countryside with air fleets and rockets, and finally launced Sea Lion. I had made a serious mistake, though, and pulled back for a few turns; for I had blown the London port to 0 with rockets, not thinking that I would need it later.... Once it had 'healed', I really launched Sea Lion, and was able to successfully complete it. I had a defensive line set up for Russia, and began moving stuff back that way, as well as to Spain (which had not joined). I could not take Iraq, as Russia moved stuff in- and a Canadian unit was still holding Malta. I did manage to get Alexandria and the Suez; and the Italians battled in that region until the end of the game- finally taking Iraq. I conquered Spain and Portugal, while moving steadily east in Russia; and at that point I was making over 700 MPP's a turn, which was rather devastating for the Allies. By turn 50, it was essentially over. [ June 25, 2003, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Reepicheep ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 reepicheep as axis advances over a well-played opponent tigleth. CONGRATULATIONS AN D GOOD GAME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 26, 2003 Author Share Posted June 26, 2003 UPDATE ON TOURNEY SO FAR! (revised 7-7-03) #1 rannug (axis) winner #2 jollyguy (axis) winner #3 jo le souvrain (axis) winner #4 gavrok (allies) winner #5 reepicheep (axis) winner #6 winner of disorderVS terry turn 70 turned over to teriff to adjudicate! #7 winner of xwormwoodVS theblackdouglas #8 xediel (axis) winner JUST one week of first round left!. if YOUR game goes until july 15 and there is a question as to who will win it, grandmaster terif will decide the outcome! please let him know! [ July 06, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: disorder ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Ok, the U.S. has just entered the war to aid the allies, although the Axis owns everything (yes, I said everything) except for Ireland and England(oh, and Malta). Russia will enter the war in 1 or 2 turns. The good news is England has level 5 jets. The bad news is so does Germany, and they outnumber us 11-2. More bad news is rumors are abound that Germany is massing for a great amphibious attack into Russia from both the south and the north. Additionally subs populate the Atlantic, so the U.S. will have difficulty crossing the ocean for any attacks. Besides that things are going well....ha ha. [ June 27, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: KDG ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xediel Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 he is constantly forgetting switzerland i launched the attack on russia and i took my first city on the border with turkey, killed the corps in riga but didn't manage to take it... i could of taken it with the tank unit but thought to myself it's better to make as much damage to the border units and i'll easily take it the next turn.. malta is bothering me from the beggining and messing with it cost me precious time.. now i made other arrangments and converted it into a training center for my carrier units(one german and one italian)(the italian one survived the battle in the mediterranean and made a decisive blow to the british dominance and ark royal in egypt.. go figure that out) and a italian sub so it's not so bad.. my rocket units are constantly harrasing london and its port... started slowly building up my navy so i can win the battle of the atlantic britain is constantly losing 40 mpp for the atlantic and 5 on malta britain has 4 ships left and i think they are badly scathed.. waiting for the cccp move.. they have 1600 mpp and if they use it wisely it could be a slow and boggy battle.. air superiority is working my way... if all goes well by 44 we'll have our "lebensraum" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reepicheep Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 A few words on the scenario itself: It was quite a refreshing change from the stock campaign. I enjoyed fighting in Africa around Tobruk (something that doesn't happen often for me), and the massive naval engagements were a blast. It's amazing how much difference one level of gun-laying (or whatever that research is) makes! And the large German fleet means it is possibly a good strategy to invest in it. My main quibble with the scenario is the lack of readiness for the U.S. and Russia, but I reckon that's been taken care of already. All-in-all, great stuff, JJ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Reepicheep Thanks and congratulations on your win. Glad you've enjoyed it; interesting input. If we were starting the tournament now I'd add a few houserules: 1) No LC Gambit. 2) Atlantic, North Sea and Baltic Amphibious Ops during May-June-July-August only. 3) Mediterranean and Black Sea Amphibious Ops any time of the year. 4) Barbarossa can only be initiated during May-June-July and August. 5) No amphibious ops against Russia during first turn of Barbarossa. 6) Axis can't attack or launch air attacks in Russia during December and January. I think those rules would make play a bit more level and probably negate the need for earlier US and USSR entry. A lot of these scenario ideas have been arrived at with Panzer39. The Z-Plan concept is a joint effort. The next PBEM Tournament will use Panzer's version, which is somewhat different than my own and has been more thoroughly play tested. I'm confident anyone who enjoyed this scenario will enjoy Panzer's even more. [ June 30, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavrok Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 JJ Good house rule suggestions with your above note. Whole-heartedly agree with all of them, and although I think the duscussions above mentioned keeping the tourney the same for the next round I'd prefer to use Panzer's adjusted scenario, if there were to be no house rules. Hope this would give the Axis less time. Waiting to a fresh tournament would take too long ...and I'm sure that by that point there'd be fresh scenarios out there. Give a new element of freshness, and may partially offset the axis steamroller of results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Gavrok Glad you agree with the House Rules, I'll be suggesting them along with revisions to the scenario. Did you say you want to use next tournaments scenario starting with Round Two? disorder would need to make that decision and it would pretty well have to be unanimous with everyone going into the second round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xediel Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 don't think that house rules would help improve neither the game nor the scenario just would add complication and confusion. if something should be changed then change the scenario. the game works just as it is and any house rules would limit the gameplay. in this particular scenario the problem lies in the right defence of france and the player who mastered that part should be able to crush the axis if played correctly. if the defence of france is bad done and it falls early.. in most games all is lost.. and the france mostly falls because this tourney is "Open to all who believe they belong in the new player, beginner, and the lower intermediate skill levels" and it's easier to play the agressive and straight forward axis strtegy then slow and calculated allied strategy... and that's why the axis has the edge.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 15 days left in first round! jerseyjohn-- appreciate the tweaking of the scenario. good thoughts. all of these would limit unrealistic aspects of the game. gavrok-- as commented on previously, i believe it only fair to continue on with the scenario as is, UP TO THE BEGINNING OF ROUND 2. at that time we can take an OFFICIAL poll of the 8 winners and decide if changes should be made. indications are, JOLLYGUY would vote against change.ones all it takes to vote it down. this is the man you should be lobbying! regarding too much time in the tourney, i appreciate the input. perhaps a scenario starting off later in the war would be wanted?--just a thought. what would be possible would be to have tourneys starting every thirty days (if there is a need, and a scenario to go with). xediel-- wise words! as this was set up for lower intermidiate(and down), it does have it's own set of REQUIREMENTS, and PROBLEMS. lets assume that we have a scenario which EVERYONE believes to be skewed toward the axis(and this is not the case with this one). in order to be a champion in this tourney, you will have to win with the "weaker" allies at least once (and probably twice). someone who does this should no longer be allowed to play with inexperienced fellers like me and you, right? i mean he would be REALLY good,right? so therefore, the ceremony to advance him OVER the top, never able to play in the lower half again. you end up with a bunch of people wanting to have a fun game with an opponent who is close to the same skill level (as best as can be determined). regarding my game with terry--- turn 65+ axis not getting near enough mpp's. slight axis advantage in east, though little movement eastward. standoff in southern spain (axis control with strong allied presence) this results from axis lack of interest in afrika early in war. also had a botched effort in norway.finland a big help to allies, also a result of declaring war on finland early and then not taking them out. still could go either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 My scenario begins in 1941 game time. The Axis starts with all their minors plus Yugoslavia and Sweden. USSR readiness is set to 0 but jumps up quickly after 1942 rolls around. The Axis player can only take Vichy and Spain if they knock out France quickly, which is not always a given since the allies start out with the Low Countries. It is still undergoing serious play testing so I am not sure if it will be ready by the end of the first round. I would like till the end of the second round to make sure it is fully balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 panzer39-- dont worry....we will sell no wine before it's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xediel Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 if the scenario starts chronically later and every game which starts is surely to finish by the end of time given for the pbem tourney round it would then be wise to consider playing as both sides and in the end look at the score table. what i mean is.. it's pbem so you can play parallel more than one game at a time so it would be fair to play a game as axis and as allies so everyone would get the same chance and there would not be the edge In the end of the scenario we look at the score and compare the scores to decide the winner ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 XEDIEL-- excellent thought! will talk to the committee about it if we have 'nuther pbem tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 When we started this thing I pretty much thought it would be to have a little fun. Well, the Axis gets off to a 3:1 lead, one of which is only one move long due to prior commitments, and all of a sudden there has to be an entirely different scenario every round. First of all, a good scenario is not one that is perfectly balanced. The Axis has only one chance to win, it has to run like hell the first couple of years of game play before being smothered by a ring of Allies. Conversely, the Allies only have one chance to win, they have to hold the Axis and reverse the tide. That's it. Everything else is an exception to the rule. I've won several games with both sides of this scenario. I've lost two with the Allies and one with the Axis and am presently stuck in a not very promising game with the Axis. In both cases I was and am going against a very good player who uses the Allies the way they're supposed to be used so the Axis doesn't roll over him and take everything during the first year or two. Which also happens to be the way I play the Allies, though I claim to be a particularly good player. House Rules are one thing, playing musical chairs with different scenarios is another. Sixteen Players started an elimination tournament using a single scenario. I never created it for tournament play and I never created it to be judged against perfection. But I also made sure both sides had a damn good chance and went through the trouble of testing it fairly extensively. So, please, stop all the whining about the Axis having a decisive advantage. It doesn't. Whine instead about not knowing how to play the Allies. Sorry, I'm just a little bit tired of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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