Jeff Heidman Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 I am not playing a real commander on the ground, I am playing Tojo pushing some plastic pieces around on a map somehwere in Tokyo. And yes, I would know *exactly* how my carriers all got sunk. This is not "oniscience", this is basic game play. FoW deals with omniscience. If you want to argue that there should be more FoW, then go right ahead, I will probably agree with you. But this has nothing to do with FoW. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimlord Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: I am not playing a real commander on the ground, I am playing Tojo pushing some plastic pieces around on a map somehwere in Tokyo. And yes, I would know *exactly* how my carriers all got sunk. This is not "oniscience", this is basic game play. FoW deals with omniscience. i have to agree with jeff here.... considering the scale if i lose an army in russia i figure that it did prob have senior surviviors and radio contact as to what happened...the fun is in knowing and responding..a playback is nec. even with ships they seldom went down "all hands" and never an entire fleet....ranges were to short for any type of combat and reports did and would come in...to large a scale for that much FOW If you want to argue that there should be more FoW, then go right ahead, I will probably agree with you. But this has nothing to do with FoW. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 On this scale, the replay is entirely justified from the simulation standpoint. From a game standpoint, having no replay might add some guesswork to your evaluation of what your opponent has out there, and what happened. The negative is the long list of really annoyed gamers who want to see what happened, have a right to expect that information in a simulation of this time period and scale, and the fact that denying this intelligence is completely silly on a historical basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 bump for the biggest shortcoming in the game. Please fix this Hubert! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I agree with Jeff. PBEM replay is a must. Was my unit destroyed by a air fleet, tank unit, battleship, rocket, what? We get to see the AI's move. And if you implement TCP/IP I assume we would see the Opponent's move. Why not for PBEM? To say that not having it adds to Fog of War is ludicrous. If it really adds to Fog of War have it work that way when I toggle it on/off. And if you could run back the complete game later would be nice too. Look how long we've been bugging BTS for it in CMBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by SuperTed: Guys, Having played both against the AI and via PBEM, I can tell you I agree that a replay feature would be nice. However, not having that feature is hardly a game killer.In your opinion. I respectfully disagree however, as it's a game killer for me. I already find the replayability of SC limited with the AI, so it will have to be strictly PBEM for me. If there is no replay, I'm not buyin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Lets put this in perspective: Who would argue that Combat Missions would be a superior game without the movie replay each turn? You could just get a list of your units that got destroyed (not just attacked), and you figure it out from there. It's Fog of War, right?? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Calling a rather glaring oversight a "feature" is the almost a charicature of bad software production.Hehe...isn't that the Micro$oft strategy? BTW: you should consider doing standup, Jeff, as you had me rolling with that post ("the freaking Bismarck!"). Overall this is a decent game, especially considering it is jsut one guy doing all the work. I second that. I know that there are many out there that think I'm trolling or simply out to bash SC. This is hardly the case. I think Hubert has done an awesome job for one guy on this project. However, it's because he's soooo close to nailing it down on the playability aspect that I'm critical on a few issues, with this PBEM replay issue being #1 on my list. Call it frustration at another game being oh, so close, yet missing the mark. (unless of course there are some marked improvements from the demo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by R_Leete: I do see your points, but also haven't had any real problems because of it. It just makes the defender's turns kinda boring. Well, since we play the game for fun, I see this as a big deal! It doesn't matter so much if Excel gets boring but it is important to retain an element of fun in a game. If I see that it took 4 or 5 different units pounding on my one army to bring it to strength of 2, I'll be happy, knowing my defense was holding. If, on the other hand, I see a single attack do the same damage, I'll know he got lucky. That maybe my defense was sound, but the breaks went against me.That's only a small part of it, though. It is also really important to know whether you lost all of those points due to enemy bombers, or is it his infantry chewing away at you. Knowing this can help you make critical decisions during your turn. If you assume it's his bombers pounding away at you, stationing extra air fleets nearby is useless if his armor is pouncing on your infantry instead. Another useful element of a replay is that you can see where his units are moving to and from. For example, in Europe Aflame I get glimpses of my opponents forces moving, even with FOW, and this can help me predict what he is up to. Of course, he can also use this to dupe me, but the point is that this is information that was historically available to theater-level commanders. This is all mandatory information that any commander should have at his disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by Immer Etwas: Therefore, I re-state my advocacy (the Devil involved or not): it is God-like to know all immediately. It is human to try and piece together disparate facts arriving at disjointed moments. Hehe...so the Germans watched their units get depleted in Normandy for 2 months but had no idea where the damage was coming from? Or the Russians watched their front line crumble, yet had no idea where the attack was coming from? All joking aside, I think you're missing the mark. You're confusing tactical intelligence with strategic decisions. The replay isn't giving you anything that a historical commander wouldn't have had. In any case, the game isn't very interesting without the replay option for many, so it is a playability issue with a lot of people. [ June 03, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Mannheim Tanker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Well MT, my arguments have been severally termed silly, and now (... not quite the apotheosis ) ludicrous. At any rate, VERY unpopular (tho, this may be for other reasons, I appreciate). Those are not necessarily synthetic or dialectic arguments, rather an attack on the Advocate. However, I remain undeterred. And for this (non-abrasive, non-Omniscient) reason: I am able to determine -- for the most part, if my units were diminished by ground forces (the opponent's forces will be right there in front of me, also partly diminished). Moreover, I do not know PRECISELY if Air power was involved, BUT I will ASSUME it so if the damage to my forward positions has been MORE than the evident attacking units might reasonably inflict on me. I can easily use my imagination to fill in the blanks, AND accept what I do not YET know (in this short time-frame of a week or so) until further developments will make it EVIDENT. I am guessing that most gamers very much want this feature (have I been merely the Devil's Advocate?... or, is it possible? it's disciple?) which would explain the vehemence of the counter-argument. Is it a case where they fear -- perhaps even subconsciously, the Deux Ex Machina, or worse, the PBEM opponet who will somehow :eek: cheat them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Imagination, eh? Hehe...I thought the whole point of buying the game was so that we would no longer have to imagine the perfect strategic-level wargame. I realize that you like it the way it is. The point is, a sizeable minority (or is it a majority...probably is) prefer to have a playback for whatever reason. It can always be made optional so that you can imagine your opponents' moves while the rest of us get to enjoy watching them. To each his own. It just seems silly to rule it out entirely when it has such strong support is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 As originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: I realize that you like it the way it is. You are making an assumption. Please quote me where I have stated this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by Immer Etwas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: I realize that you like it the way it is. You are making an assumption. Please quote me where I have stated this. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by Immer Etwas: Is it a case where they fear -- perhaps even subconsciously, the Deux Ex Machina, or worse, the PBEM opponet who will somehow :eek: cheat them?I can't speak for anyone else, but I just think cryptic messages are a lame replacement for seeing what is going on. "Cruiser Scharnhorst was sunk." Where? I don't even remember where I left it! "2nd Army was destroyed." It was? I thought 2nd Army was in Egypt. Oh, wait, was that 3rd Army? Who destroyed it? Was it the tank unit right next to it? How come I don't know? Hmm, the tank unit still has 9 points. Did it attack? I winder how many points it had last turn? Maybe I should print out the map every turn so I can remember... Why do I have to guess? Why do I have to remember where any unit that got destroyed was to even have a chance of guessing? I don't want to "use my imagination" as a replacement for what the game designer forgot to put into the game! Again, would anyone play CM, but agree to never look at the movie files? Heck, those who think it is unimportant shouldn't even need the reports! Just "imagine" which of your units was there last turn but isn't now! The reports actually do not even provide you with any new information! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Better yet Jeff, How about doing away with replay in the single player game. Simply let the computer calculate the results and then remove/reduce units accordingly. Who needs to see what is going on?? Seriously folks, this ommission is critical. It is a show stopper for those of us who PBEM. not having a replay kills the game. I wouldn't play it single player without being able to see what is going on, and I damn sure will not play it PBEM if I cannot see what is going on.Think about it. Would you play the single payer if you couldn't see the computer make its moves and attack? Why should the PBEMers not have the same benefit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by Immer Etwas: Well MT, my arguments have been severally termed silly, and now (... not quite the apotheosis ) ludicrous. At any rate, VERY unpopular (tho, this may be for other reasons, I appreciate). Those are not necessarily synthetic or dialectic arguments, rather an attack on the Advocate. However, I remain undeterred. And for this (non-abrasive, non-Omniscient) reason: I am able to determine -- for the most part, if my units were diminished by ground forces (the opponent's forces will be right there in front of me, also partly diminished). Moreover, I do not know PRECISELY if Air power was involved, BUT I will ASSUME it so if the damage to my forward positions has been MORE than the evident attacking units might reasonably inflict on me. I can easily use my imagination to fill in the blanks, AND accept what I do not YET know (in this short time-frame of a week or so) until further developments will make it EVIDENT. I am guessing that most gamers very much want this feature (have I been merely the Devil's Advocate?... or, is it possible? it's disciple?) which would explain the vehemence of the counter-argument. Is it a case where they fear -- perhaps even subconsciously, the Deux Ex Machina, or worse, the PBEM opponet who will somehow :eek: cheat them?Sorry Immer, didn't mean for it to come off as a personal attack. Just want the best game possible. It's very valuable to see how and what your opponent did within the limits of your units spotting abilities. Not being able to see his attacks or moves will be a severe drawback. What am I supposed to do? Ask him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 As originally posted by Jeff Heidman: I can't speak for anyone else, but I just think cryptic messages are a lame replacement for seeing what is going on. "Cruiser Scharnhorst was sunk." Where? I don't even remember where I left it! "2nd Army was destroyed." It was? I thought 2nd Army was in Egypt. Oh, wait, was that 3rd Army? Who destroyed it? Was it the tank unit right next to it? How come I don't know? Good stuff. If it is a matter of MEMORY, then I would have to agree, and say that -- I too would like to have the replay. Your recent-most post has done more to convince me than any other. Likely because I could easily see how I too would begin to wonder what happened to a unit that I was not paying attention to. It is one thing when you are on the Eastern front and focused; it is entirely another for those units scattered to hell and gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbringer Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 I just thought of a very important reason that playback is a must. Learning. Lately, I have been getting my butt kicked in pbem and TCP/IP. Game after game the same half-dozen people were beating me, and I had, at one time, won games against many of these people. After a dozen losses in a row I started trying to figure out how they were winning. I had to pay close attention to what they did so I could learn what I needed to do. How can this happen when I can't see their turns? (within the boundries of FoW) I am never certain if they combined all of thier infantry and tanks together or used air assets. How do I counter their actions? I have to guess who attacked me and with what? I often watch the replay in CM more than once, to make sure I know what happened. I am sure you wouldn't need to do this in SC but you would just have to see the replay. Once pbem gets good and opponents create tough strategies lack of playback will be a game killer. I question whether I will buy this game without this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Nope, at a stragic level like this you have to have a replay for PBEM to even work. Tell ya what...try playing the AI even now (FOW on) but walk away from the screen completely until it's turn is over- thats what PBEMers will be facing but 5x worse since we intend to play thinking peeople (well I do . Little thing like which way that 6 army retreated becomes unknown even though they WERE in spotting range. Never mind not knowing if it was a sub, fleet or air that sunk your battleship. I'll just play the TCP mode until it's patched *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Saunders Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Stormbringer: Lately, I have been getting my butt kicked in pbem and TCP/IP. Game after game the same half-dozen people were beating me....Must get demoralizing after a while. Seriously, You are correct. This is about the third time in this thread I have chimed in for PBEM replay. I actually only played the one PBEM game with Stormbringer on the SC demo....until last night. Then I played twice as axis. With the ability to see the AI attack against me and still having FOW was about the right balance of fun IMHO. The AI will get old really quick and as Stormbringer mentioned earlier: "people try the darnedest things." Nothing like playing against a living, breathing, sneaky, devious, gamey, and vengeful human. -Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbringer Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Sarge Saunders: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Stormbringer: Lately, I have been getting my butt kicked in pbem and TCP/IP. Game after game the same half-dozen people were beating me....Must get demoralizing after a while. -Sarge</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 I need to chime in that PBEM replay is a MUST-HAVE. For me, it makes me doubt whether I want to buy the game (I was sure I wanted to until I saw this thread). Reason is, AI is challenging, but unimaginative. I won't have the time to play TCIP, so that leaves PBEM for a challenge. Without replay, the opponents turns are no fun, confusing, and ahistorical. Remember, high command knew what was happening within 24 hours. The intel may be wrong, but they got the gist of things. For example Stalin knew infantry and armor attacked his forward defenses and the Luftwaffe took out his air force. Those units didn't just disappear... and no HQ was more out of touch than Soviet HQ at the beginning of Barbarossa. So, no PBEM replay, no sale to me, unless the game is at budget game pricing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 So if PBEM replay is included then you will all buy the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 Originally posted by Hubert Cater: So if PBEM replay is included then you will all buy the game? Hubert, I'll seriously consider it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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