Sticky Topic for PBEM

[Oak]

Hubert, Moon or whoever decides these things,

can we create a sticky topic similar to the one for Z-league where we can post win/loss results, the list of PBEM players, etc.? The "PBEM League" is growing and we really need a sticky topic so that PBEM players can be kept informed and updated.

Oak

[jon_j_rambo]

Oak --- I think we should allow PBEM into Z-League BUT with restrictions. Make PBEM players 2nd class citizens in the league. Meaning, a PBEM can never force or avoid a TCP/IP guy. If a PBEM player gets to say...the Top 5 (or some rule)...then he/she must play TCP/IP. Refusal to play a challenge TCP/IP would result in automatic forfeit.

I know I sound like a jerk, but I'd rather have you in Z-League w/ restrictions then not at all. PBEM will NEVER get accepted by the TCP/IP competitve crowd. You know the reasons.

Anyhow, I'd like to see PBEM in Z-League with restrictions.

Legend

[JerseyJohn]

That would be one way of cutting down on the PBEM membership.

It was organized as an informal activity where results would be compiled as a reference. Nobody entered to become a second class anything.

I know how that was meant and don't take offense at the term, but the thing is a lot of us really don't want to be part of a competitive structure, we just feel like playing at our own pace and without any pressure.

[Oak]

PBEM, and the PBEM League, is growing and starting to blossom. I, personally, would be very much opposed to the PBEM League becoming part of the Z-Ladder.

One reason is that the focus is more on fun, while the Z-Ladder is more competitive. Another reason is that there are a lot of new and inexperienced players in the PBEM League, while the Z-ladder has mostly experienced players.

I should add that you statements about PBEM players being "second class citizens" is not the best diplomatic move if you want to see the PBEM League and Z-ladder coming together.

I think it makes sense to have two different groups, with one playing by email and less competitive and the other playing by TCP/IP and more competitive. It provides greater choice and opportunities to the SC-playing community.

[Oak]

Sorry, I forgot to say that my note was in response to Rambo's and that the "you" in my note is Rambo.

[disorder]

( masser rambo and a PBEM'r having a discussion)

I think we should allow PBEM into Z-League BUT with restrictions. Make PBEM players 2nd class citizens in the league. Meaning, a PBEM can never force or avoid a TCP/IP guy. If a PBEM player gets to say...the Top 5 (or some rule)...then he/she must play TCP/IP. Refusal to play a challenge TCP/IP would result in automatic forfeit.

so masser rambo, wese pbem'ers would be ALLOWED to be in youse zleague?

mmm-hmmm

and we fellers could pretend we was the same?

mmm-hmmm

but we wouldnt really be the same?

unhh-unhhh

becuz wese second class citizens?

mmm-hmmm

and wese was born no-good no accounts?

mmm-hmmm

the "new issue ,"(SUBSTITUTE PBEM PLAYERS) for the most part, are lazy, thriftless, intemperate, insolent, dishonest, and without the most rudimentary elements of morality....Universally, they report a general depravity and retrogression at large in sections in which they are left to themselves, closely resembling a reversion to barbarism.

quote from jim crow page

[JerseyJohn]

I'm glad I'm not caught up in this Tar-Baby!

Oh no, I used that expression -- :eek:

As I said earlier, I don't think Rambo meant it in that sense. And he certainly isn't a racist.

disorder Why is it every time I really enjoy something you post, which is to say every damn thing you post, I always get a feeling that my name is being put on some secret "We got ourselves a Bad'un!" list?

Anyway, great posting. I hope it doesn't offend anyone, and if it does I hope they at least read it a second time so maybe they'll see how you really intended it.

[ August 20, 2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

If you think I'm tough on PBEMer's, I don't think Zappsweden would even let you in the front door. Yes, there has been Jim Crow Laws, Blue Laws, & now Rambo introduces PBEM Laws.

1) Thou shalt never force TCP/IPer's to play PBEM.

2) Thou shalt give your spot/place in the Forum Opponent Finder for TCP/IP play. We go first.

3) You Reloading scum may not even host if demandeded by a Legend, Icon, or Top-5 TCP/IP player.

4) Games must be played quickly. None of this take forever 30-day AAR PBEM garbage. TCP/IP get the right to a speedy game.

5) TCP/IP get the prefered game time.

........to be continue.........

[ August 20, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Jollyguy]

First off, Rambo is one of the few real characters you encounter in life, and I mean that in the best sense. I love his sense of humor, and how he so easily baits others. I can't remember how old he is, he mentioned it to me once, but he reminds me of myself when I was younger (I'm 45), when I used to love to goad people. I was bummed when I heard he might retire, and am glad he's back. He adds a helluva lot of personality to this board.

Anyway. When SC first came out I did my share of tcp, but then real life intervened. Right now I'm pressed to squeeze in a two or three hour tcp session a few times a month. I would LOVE to do more tcp, but first, the better half would end up doing some real life head cracking on me, and second, my other interests (stocks, gardening, reading WW II books, walking the dogs, writing, etc) would get short shrift. So to maintain balance, pbem fits my current lifestyle.

I'll admit that I'll never be the player Terif or Rambo or Zapp is...and now Codename Condor (congrats btw!) but I appreciate the pbem league as it does bring a competive aspect to pbem'ers.

Second class citizens may not have been the best choice of words, but who cares, Rambo is just a direct guy. I for one, an almost exclusive pbem'er, support his stance.

Before one can ascend to the throne and get fitted for the championship belt, having to face off one-on-one, live, does not seem unreasonable. Heck, the guy who won the World Championship of poker this year cut his teeth on the online poker sites, but eventually had to make the trip to Vegas and stare down guys with names like "Slim" and "Tex," and take their chips from them directly. (Word of advice; If your a casual card player, don't ever play poker with guys named Tex or Slim.)

Establishing a rule that for pbem'ers the final hurdle be done mano-a-mano, live, seems reasonable to me. TCP can be done session by session, and eventually completed. A couple hours a weekend for four, six weeks, would do it. And hell, some games are conceded shortly after Barbarossa, so maybe a few tcp sessions would do it.

But in the meantime I'll stay in the pbem league, as if I was in the tcp/pbem league I would want to play too much, and lose some of that balance I'm trying to maintain.

Bob

[JerseyJohn]

Rambo

PLEASE DON'T CONTINUE

Nobody needs it or even wants to read it.

"RELOADING SCUM"

Read my first move against Archibald and tell me that was reloaded! Plus that's going way over the line. Why are you looking to turn friends into enemies?

-- ZAPP WOULDN'T EVEN LET US IN THE DOOR -- WHO ASKED HIM TO? -- AND WHO ASKED YOU TO START MAKING RULES FOR US?

--

Mass Deletion -- calmed down. Thanks Oak for making the posting below this one.

[ August 20, 2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Oak]

Calm down folks, and take it easy. The purpose of this topic was to request a Sticky Thread for the PBEM folks, not to start a debate on PBEM vs TCP/IP. Obviously, there is room for both and a need for both.

[jon_j_rambo]

Sir Jersey --- Dude, is the electricity blackout in New Jersey done something to your mind? Relax, relax, relax. "Relax, don't do it" --- Franky

Jersey you're an Icon & Made-Man, why blow your top against a blanket statement? Yes, you do fall into the bucket of PBEM players, that does not make you a bad apple. I'm really surprised at your reaction, because there's no reason to react.

There's "questionable" actions in TCP/IP play, it doesn't effect me, because I'm legit.

It's like a test from SAT logic:

1) People pay taxes

2) Some cheat on taxes

3) Rambo pays some taxes

Should Rambo feel guilty becuase he pays taxes & some people cheat?

Surprised in Boise,

Legend

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo,

Calmed down in New Jersey.

Okay, I apologize for my tone, it wasn't intentional, every once in a while I get excitable.

The thing is this, the IP League is competitive, the PBEM League is recreational, it’s as simple as that. We aren’t concerned about re-loadings.

We’d like a bare minimum of rules and pretty much only want our own regulations and recreational tournaments. Nobody in this league cares to have a ladder or to in any way make it a personal competition.

I don’t see any way or shape that it fits in with the Zapp League, it’s apples and oranges.

Players are free to play in both, that’s their option.

If someone wants to come along and create a more competitive PBEM League then that’s another situation. Personally I wouldn’t belong to something like that because I agree with you on the reload issue, and have said it from the first time you stated it in the forum. It’s impossible to use PBEMs competitively precisely because of the reload cheat option. Which isn’t to say all, or even most, pbem players use it. But it’s there and makes the method useless for competitive purposes. Even using PBEM in the Ryder Cup is wrong, but we assume those games are being conducted in an honorable manner; such assumptions can’t, and shouldn’t, be made on a regular competitive basis.

I think this Thread is proof in itself that the two Leagues should remain separate organizations. They represent two totally different forms of play.

No hard feelings. The crankiness is from insomnia, it’s 2 a.m. out here and I should have been asleep two hours ago.

Luckily we weren’t affected by the blackout, it stopped a few miles from us, but thanks for asking.

[ August 20, 2003, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Yes, Sir Jersey, I agree & understand your stance. But we can't stereotype all PBEM can we? I bet there are some PBEM who are competitive, want to play for glory, kicking ass, smack-talk, etc.

By the way: "I was the one" --- Elvis Presley 1957, I was the one who was trying to get interested PBEM into Z-League. I was the one who insisted that PBEM be in Ryder Cup. Dude, I know you & Archie, that's why you guys were paired together

Hey, we've covered this issue. Zapp can speak for himself & I shouldn't have spoken for him.

Can we discuss American League & National League Designated Hitter rules?

[jon_j_rambo]

Sir Jersey --- You're right, adding PBEM to Z-League would involve a bunch of more rules. If any PBEM wants to pursue, I won't be the Spokesperson, they need to talk to Zapp themselves.

By the way, I was trying to be funny with the rule list HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa It was a joke.

This has truly become a "Sticky Thread", many will stop-in & get glued to the posts.

[ August 20, 2003, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Oak]

Rambo,

What is the difference between National league and American league designated hitter rules? Although I'm an American, I live in Singapore and haven't seen a baseball game in several years (at least). You've gotten my curiousity up. Please tell me, what is the difference?

Oak

PS: I'm serious. I don't know the difference and I'm curious to find out.

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

It's unfortunate Hubert hasn't got a way to solve the reload problem because you're right, there are many people who'd like to play PBEM in a competitive manner and can't play IP.

Sorry I didn't see the rules as being a parody, this hasn't been one of my sharpest days or I'd have understood.

I know you love to play golf and no doubt you do so competitively. For decades I enjoyed playing in chess tournaments, till I moved out here to a wilderness. In a chess tournament there are very strict rules governing play. When you touch a piece you have to move it, you have a clock to worry about, can't make noise, can't move the pieces around, all sorts of things, and that's the way I like to play chess; no talking, no music, no wandering pieces, I like it to be nothing other than playing chess. Despite my love of the game I'd never consider playing in a competitive postal tournament and for the same reasons that we've got here in the PBEM form. On the other hand, I don't mind playing chess through e-mail on a social basis.

That's the way I view this game situation. IP is the only way to control the flow of play. It seems possible to cheat with disconnections, just as in a chess tournament it's possible to leave the board and ask an unscrupulous grandmaster for advice, there's always some way of cheating in any game.

In adding PBEM games to the Zapp League, I think you're on the right track in treating them with lesser value, you'd have to as they're by necessity less credible.

In my own PBEM games I become apprehensive when things start going too well because there is always that lingering doubt about whether or not it's for real.

One of the few times I seriously considered a reload was in an AAR Game where Poland fell on the first move! I thought no one would believe it was honest. Games like that tend to be balanced by the ones where you have no luck at all. I paid for that quick kill today, when Archibald's Pom army had to be stomped to death long after it should have stopped breathing. All part of the game.

Agreed on your "Sticky Thread" observation and got a chuckle out of it as well.

Here's hopeing that Zapp League addition works, it would be a good addition and would provide an alternative for competitive PBEM players.

And now, it being 3:30 a.m. and the cognac snifter drained, I may yet manage a few hours of sleep and wish you a Good Night in Boise.

[ August 20, 2003, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Oak --- This is turning into a Legendary thread. You seriously don't know what I'm talking about with Major League Baseball's (MLB) designated hitter rule? That is, the "DH-rule"? It was put in place in the early 1970's for the American League. I'm going to leave the details to somebody else regarding this rule explanation, because Comrade Trapp & myself have been playing a marathon game (see ARR w/ mega cash/MMP's).......I'm very tired. Plus, it will give some other guys a chance to take this change of subject & discuss.

Rambo

[JerseyJohn]

My posting above Rambo's last entry were put in at about the same time. Having replied to the main issue I thought I was done for the night, but it wasn't to be.

While stumbling off to bed I made the mistake of reading those baseball entries and am now sitting here, zombie-like, typing though I can no longer see the screen because really, I'm asleep.

Oak

In 1973 (?) The American League adapted a rule where one player could bat for the pitcher. The pitcher would never have to hit for himself.

Actually, the Designated Hitter could bat for any player, as I understand it, but it always turns out to be the pitcher, most of whom are terrible hitters.

But it has to be remembered that Babe Ruth was one of the greatest pitchers for several years and, after becoming an outfielder, was one of the greatest hitters of all time. So that basically was the argument against it, if Babe Ruth had never been allowed to hit he'd be remembered today only as a pitcher -- in other words, probably forgotten -- because as a hitter he was utterly phenominal. Also, a lot of strategy goes out the window because some pitchers bunt well while others don't, and some can both pitch and hit well, like Don Drysdale or Bob Gibson, virtually adding an extra player to their team's batting order.

The National League never adapted the DH rule and does it the old fashioned way where everyone in the batting order has to hit for himself.

The Designated Hitter shouldn't be confused with a Pinch Hitter, who can come bat once during the game for anyone in the lineup. If not assigned to fielding position the pinch hitter leaves the game, where the DH never fields anything.

At first DH served to extend the careers of good hitters such as Rico Carty and Orlando Cepeda, National Leaguers getting late in their careers who were traded to the AL so they hit in their declining seasons without having to field. As time went on players came up to the American League who had only marginal fielding skills and were intended as DHs almost from the start.

3:40 a.m. now. Good Night World.

[ August 20, 2003, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Jersey,

Your talking about Babe Ruth and postin pictures of smurfs at 4:00 in the morning, you gotta get a life man.........

You gotta admit, the guy in your picture does look like a smurf.

Comrade Trapp

[ August 20, 2003, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

[Oak]

Rambo,

I was roughly familiar with the DH rule but did not realize that it was only used in one league. Keep in mind that I've lived that last 20 years in Asia (Hong Kong and Singapore) where one seldom sees American sports. I watch football (American football that is) once a year when I watch the Superbowl. I watch a baseball game only if I happen to visit the US (which I do every 2-3 years) during baseball season.

Now, talk about the English Premier League (the top English soccer league) or Series A (the top Italian soccer league) and I won't ask questions that are quite so dumb.

Oak

[JerseyJohn]

Comrade,

I've got a life, what I don't got is sleep!

Refilling that snifter with cognac; it worked for Churchill but doesn't seem to do it for me.

We're in the same time zone and you seem to be a nightowl like myself, either an insomniac, or . . ..

And the sun approaches. So, this time it's Good Night to all for real!

Ahhh, there's nothing like soil from the Old Country in a good, solid wooden box, except for the pebbles, should have bought a better sifter.

OH NO! Not to worry, only passing headlights and not the dawn.

[ August 20, 2003, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Jordy]

Anyway...I like the idea of a PBEM sticky. Due to my schedule, I am finding it more and more difficult to play a couple hours a night (this is proof I do have a life). It would be good to post tournaments and easier to find PBEM opponents. I think I will be switching over to pretty much only PBEM shortly (after I finish my TCP games in progress) because its getting harder and harder to play the game while the wife throws stuff at me.

[ August 20, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Jordy ]

[Desert Dave]

JJ,

Sorry to hear you haven't tamed that Insomnia Beast... it troubles me time and again, as well, and counting constantly bleating! Sheep ain't no solution, though, toting up ALL the intricate statistics from the 1957 baseball season sometimes works for me... I usually get through the Yanks and Chisox and Tribe and into those swaggering, cool-cat Tigers...

Which, brings us to an... interlude:

It's a quarter to three,

And there's no-one in the place,

Just, you and me... so,

Set 'em up Joe...

-- Old Blue Eyes... Forever Young, Forever Relevant

*************

Speaking of the dying American Pastime, quite an apt description of what Designated-Hitter is all about... except, I would add:

Due to the dearth of Offense in the mid 60s to early 70s, the Powers-That-Be (... always to be Xtra leery of, no matter what "sport"... to include the ubiquitous StrangeLove sorts who twist the levers & gears over at The Military Industrial Complex, but of course) determined that the typical Fan was falling asleep in the early innings... like the first or second! with so very little fast-flux! & flow, so

They rudely and stupidly stuck in that DH rule. :eek:

To hype-up the snoozing viewing audience.

In hopes of... what? Who knows?

But, that little problem of... how do you KEEP ON KEEPING ON with all that Xtreme smashing and bashing? You just cannot keep INCREASING the mighty homeruns! Without destroying all those small strategems that make the game... ah, Sinatra relevant. At some point, they will... LOSE the dedicated aficion,, true?

Two analogies: 1) The constant eye-seizing action-reaction in most American movies these days... too little attention to character development and the "psychological" nuances, a la Bergman and the French & Italian "auteurs."

And, 2) Conglomerate Capitalism, where the idea seems to be... RUSH off-shore to avoid fair share of taxes, un-stitch all the Union labels, annihilate the surrounding Eco-system so no-body can hardly even breathe, and as CEO... drift down to moon-silvered Malibu sands from high-horse heaven... on stolen golden parachutes.

(... ummm, wherever? Did that "Calvinist work ethic," which INSISTED on putting any corporate SURPLUS... back to work! For, common cause... as Carnegie and Vanderbilt and even Rockefeller used to do... )

Well, as for competitive PBEM... I too prefer easy-going and laid-back contests, although... I wouldn't mind a rousing, rock 'em clock 'em, roll around the Big-City alley type of encounter now and then, so,

I truly hope that Hubert WILL include a fool-proof reload mechanism (... if there is such a thing) in SC2! :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

It seems to run a course for a few weeks and is followed by a few weeks where it's early to be and early to rise, then suddenly it's three in the morning and I'm wide awaks! Nothing seems to help, your herbal tea remedy works sometimes and other times has no effect, same with having a drink or two, this morning it did nothing at all except make me cranky! So that's two things I'd like to see Hubert come up with, a fool proof PBEM method and a cure for insomnia.

Interesting how that 1957 season always comes up; I agree, it was one of the most interesting right out of the gate.

Not much of a pennant race in the American League, with the Yankees cutting along behind Mantle's .365, phenominal on base average and power stats, all after his Triple Crown Season. Meanwhile he was easily passed for the batting crown by Ted William's .388 fountain of youth season with was it 36 homers? Not bad for a guy hin 19th season! Pitching galore, good White Sox and Tiger teams going perenially unnoticed despite stars like Apariccio, Kaline, Fox, Bunning and Doby. The Washington Senators had their usual overabundance of right handed homerun hitters like Roy Sievers with his 42 for a respectable league lead, but little else. The Indians continued their decline with a staff of overage pitching greats and Rocky Colavito while the Orioles tried building a viable franchise. In Kansas City the Athletics groomed players for the annual off-season budget balancing trade to New York.

A great year in the National League, Dodgers Braves and Cardinals battling it out, Milwaukee finally taking it and beating the Yanks in seven.

Last year for Roy Campanella, last year for both the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants, a banner at the Polo Grounds saying, "Go Team, Willie, stay here!" Last season also for Jackie Robinson, who retired rather than be traded to the rival Giants.

Great seasons for Hank Arron and Stan Musial, with Mays having his last year with a lot of triples in the Polo Grounds huge outfield.

A good season for pitchers, too, but basically a hitters year.

One of the things I dislike about the present game is the outfield layout. They're boring. Always symetrical and with the fences too close.

In the fifties and earlier every had a

really outstanding center fielder, they had to because the fences there were usually in the mid-four hundreds! It wasn't an accident that Cleveland the Yanks and the Giants always produced stars at that position, if you didn't have a Tris Speaker, Joe (or Dom) DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays in those ball parks you spent the whole season watching visiting teams circling the bases, because a ball that rolled to the centerfield fence in one of those old ballparks was a homer for normal runners and an easy triple for slower guys -- except Elston Howard, who could barely make third on balls bouncing off the monuments 465 feet from home!

Fans always like seeing film clips of Willie Mays great 1954 catch on that Vic Wertz fly -- some fly, it stayed airborne for over 450 feet! -- what's never mentioned is it would be impossible in any modern ballpark as it would have cleared the centerfield fence by forty! The game is missing something without those warped dimensions -- 310 up the lines and eternity to center! Not to mention the home run factor; never more than three or so over fifty in any given decade, but in the late nineties it became common to see that many each season -- what an age of Supermen! I guess as time passes they'll juice the balls even further and bring those fences in a few more feet till the new record goes over a hundred with four runners up in the eighties; and the fans will be delirious.

A curious move in contending St Louis with the games greatest thirdbasemen, Ken Boyer, being moved to center to accomodate a lesser thirdsacker long buried in the game's obscurity.

And we haven't gotten to that miserable and artificial DH rule, a terrible mistake right from the start. How much of the game's strategy have they removed because of it? How many great hitting pitchers have already come and gone that no fan ever knew about? Meanwhile we've been treated to string of incomplete ballplayers who can neither field nor throw and usually aren't even good baserunners; all they can do is hit. Sorry, that isn't baseball.

Well, that's enough on the baseball subject for a wargame thread. As always I'm glad you've brought it up.

The curious thing about insomnia -- like war itself a miserable malady -- is after an hour's sleep you hardly know you've got it, at least till lunchtime, when you want to doze off.

But getting back to SC, and I'm sure somebody will shortly, a PBEM League sticky would be a great addition. The game is, after all, played primarily by a recreational fan base. Accomodating them will take nothing away from those who like to play it competitively.

[ August 20, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]