Interested in PBEM?

[JerseyJohn]

Except, every so often, it happens that Poland falls in one. It also sometimes happens that a lot of research advances are made quickly; other times they don't come at all.

When I see my opponents air fleets suddenly turn into jets and mine are still level 1 I don't accuse him of cheating.

Anyway, that we even suspect these things when we see them instead of being able to enjoy the game automatically takes the fun out of playing. If I have to constantly look over my shoulder then I'd rather play the AI, or better yet do something real!

[Thales]

I would be interested in playing 1-2 simultaneous PBEM games, though I've only played 1 before.

[Oak]

JerseyJohn,

I agree with you, and your name remains on the list.

I did a poor job of expressing myself, so let me try again:

First, if the focus is on having fun and playing a friendly game, then cheating should be less of a problem or issue.

Second, I think that trying to cheat by replaying a move until you get the results you want involves a lot of work. So, that in itself helps to discourage the practice.

Third, even if one does cheat it is only going to provide a minor advantage and is unlikely to change the overall results.

Fourth, we are talking about a relatively small group of people playing together. Over time, I believe that someone who habitually cheats will be found out. And, someone who is found to habitually cheat will be shunned by the others.

In short, let's keep it informal and have fun ... and any issue of cheating will sort itself out.

[JerseyJohn]

Oak

Excellent!

Thanks for posting that and for wording it so well; I agree on every point.

I'm sure we'll all have a lot of fun at this and you're right, anyone who does reload will either stop on his own or be found out. In that case, hopefully a subtle hint will do the trick. Some of the worst mistakes lead to the most enjoyable games.

[ July 04, 2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Blakey]

Im very interested in a couple of games.

I am a relative new player to SC, but not to tactical games.

I always play fair, and wont leave you hanging by not replying!

Please email me info@1rb.net

[Iron Ranger]

People cheat, not everyone, not every time but will and do cheat (greater % chance in the competive game then a social game, which is why ladder games need to be non-PBEM).

The easy way to tell is if your getting PBEMfiles with 1, 2 ect reloads. Sometimes there is a good reason, and these should be brought up in the e-mail.

If your experenced you will start to notice if something smells wrong, Rambo gave a good list but normally it's a 'feeling'.

1) People sending turns where Poland surrenders on Turn #1. That's a good one to save.

Unfortunily you can't tell with only one event. Above is one example, I posted the numbers for this event to happen (10%-15% depending on how you use your air fleets). The bottom line is we should talk about this, keep everyone aware thats its wrong and will not be tolerated. Each person will need to make a case by case judgement and Black Ball them for themselves only as proving the cheating will be very hard (I've seen it a few times in IP and PBEM, I simply will not play these people again)

[JerseyJohn]

Iron Ranger

Proving anything is hard. What I don't like is the idea of even tolerating accusations. If I get lucky or make a good move I really won't put up with an accusation. Period. I've never accused others and won't tolerate being accused myself; the accusation postings I've read in the ladder area a few months back really left a bad taste in my mouth.

If this PBEM organization is for fun, as I'm hopeful it will be, then it will be great. There should be no champion; skill levels should be by brackets and based upon a very large number of games, in other words they should be stable. It's unfortunate to have a cheater but it's far worse to have a bunch of people, most of them having no idea of what their talking about, pointing fingers and accusing their opponents of reloading.

You're right that the thing to watch out for is headings that say the file has been reloaded, but I have no faith that most people will even read that properly -- and once the accusation is made it's needlessly insulting. I'd just ban that whole area entirely untill there's a better way of determining whether or not the file has been tampered with.

I've seen many instances in my own games where opposing units seem to appear where I could swear they shouldn't and I know often the same is true of my opponent looking at my own play.

Two examples:

In a game where I had the Allies I invaded Iraq from Egypt. On the turn Baghdad fell I moved a Tank corp to the Soviet border, the surrouding area was already UK and I had a unit in the city. I was pleased to find I was able to operate units then and there into the Caucasus where they were desperately needed instead having to wait for the following turn. My opponent commented that he was startled by this but did not accuse me of cheating; in my return e-mail I've explained exactly how it was done.

The second, in my recent AAR I had the Axis and Poland happened to fall on the first move. It was a pleasant surprise. As I said in a much earlier thread I'd already had that happen several times but it can't be counted on. Was I suppossed to start the game over because it looked suspicious? I didn't and there was never an insinuation of cheating.

These are two cases where the result was achieved in the first instance by a combination of luck and experience and in the second entirely through experience. A player on the other side who is a complete novice might not understand how the result was arrived at and there are a lot of people whose first reaction is to scream a foul. The rest of us should not have to tolerate them, we're in this to play and have fun, not to put up with insulting insinuations.

While Rambo's guidlines are good they aren't proof positive. For example, a cautious player who buys bombers and researches long range tech will see pretty far beyond his own lines and probably won't have many instances of being surprised by defending units. Is that cheating?

Even insinuating it should be the final act of desperation.

If not, if there's going to be a lot of childish finger pointing over reloading the answer might be to play with FoW off and kill the issue before it ever gets started. The games won't be as enjoyable but the more skilled player will still win and we won't have anyone crying about reloads every time they lose a battle.

Sometimes the other guy plays better, if the gap is wide enough it will seem like cheating. In this PBEM league there should be a lot of beginners playing a lot of very experienced players -- there are bound to be a lot of one sided games. And a lot of accusations. If the settings are right, no UNDUE, etc., then reloading should be a negligable issue. Accusations ought to be pretty much ignored to protect the innocent. The alternative is to allow witch hunts.

[ July 04, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[DragonFlame]

Im quite new to the game but I would like to participate if Newbies are welcome.

Im currently playing 2 (SC) email games against members of our German Axis&Allis online club. (We are playing the A&A game mostly per email so we are used to play several email games concurrently ) I think I can bring my 2 current opponents and perhaps some other players to this league.

Im just doing a lot of advertisment for Strategic command.

As for cheating: I thougt that the game will recognize it when someone reloads a saved game???

[ July 05, 2003, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Dragonflame ]

[Bill101]

I like playing PBEM - both SC and Combat Mission, and can handle a few games at a time.

I also guarantee that I won't disappear if I'm losing.

Bill

[Iron Ranger]

JJ

Nice follow-up, I agree with everything you said but maybe I was miss understood. Each person will have to make their own decision if someone is cheating. And deside if they should continue playing that individial.

Each person will need to make a case by case judgement and Black Ball them for themselves

What a person talks about among friends is not my bussines but as most have stated here (as you did) we don't need a sticky with "Post here if you think the other guy is cheating, but as we know nothing can be proved so let the verbal cannon balls fly". With PBEM remaining a 'social' game I hope we will see little of this as a problem, but talking about it and letting people know that its 'wrong' is alway good.

If you need to cheat in a game for fun your SAD

If you make a bone-head move, learn from it

If your new and getting you ass kicked ask Questions

If your playing Terif expect to lose

If the other guy isn't making any mistakes remember: In PBEM you have alot more time to think so some of the 'good' traps in IP will not work here.

If you see the game has been reloaded and there is no note attached, ask why but keep the red light on.

Sggestion for new players:

Play your first two or three games IP, you'll learn faster and be better prepared for the different opening Gambits. In many ways the entire game turns on the battle for France. Since this is at the begining it can be disapointing to play your first HvsH game and play for 60 days in a losing or behind schedule situation. Read some of the AAR as they can help. Run a search with Gambit, Suggestion, Newbie, ? some of the posts will have 'secret' information that you will not find elsewhere. Read the SC guide in the SC HQ wed site, it has lots of good info.

[ July 05, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

[JerseyJohn]

DragonFlame

It's impossible to cheat in the sense of moving pieces around illegally and things along those lines. What keeps coming up is the accusation that moves are reloaded. In other words, someone doesn't like the way things came out so he does his move over again and maybe a third or even fourth time, whatever.

This seems to occur with greater frequency if the games are being played in a highly competitive setting. Which is why I'm pushing to keep it pretty much social. Also, I'm afraid that, if people are encouraged to claim their opponents are doing these things, there will be a rash of players attributing their opponents good moves to reloading moves.

Hope you bring your friends into this, the more the merrier.

[Iron Ranger]

As for cheating: I thougt that the game will recognize it when someone reloads a saved game???

There are several different ways you can cheat, this one is easy to see but sometimes can be explained away. The common one discussed here is the 'continious reload' were you can download the file till you get the results you want.

[Iron Ranger]

Damn it JJ - you beat me to the punch. I'm looking over the senerio and will send you a turn soon. Holiday season so can't give you a exact time frame.

[JerseyJohn]

Iron,

Sounds good. I think you've hit upon the right approach.

Something like, first address the problem directly to your opponent, via e-mail. Second, if that doesn't work or draw a satisfactory response, or the problem continues, then either report it to the organizer or post it openly, giving the accused party a chance for rebuttal. I'd imagine it would be pretty embarassing to accuse someone of cheating only to be debunked publicly.

I've got a feeling the more experienced guys will have a lot of success against the new arrivals, so most of the accusations will just be in the new guys not understanding a game tactic -- which would be easily explained post-mortem.

As you say, losing should be regarded as a learning experience. The best way to improve is by playing someone with a lot more experience. Naturally that should result in a loss; the important thing is to learn what it was that caused the defeat instead of crying wolf -- Not Wolfe, though we'd all like to hear his opinion as well!

***

We seem to be posting at the same time, which always leads to interesting entries Looking forward to the move, made a couple of further changes to the Brest-Litovsk Aftermath scenario before finally sending the revised version to Otto's -- added some ships to the Royal Navy as it was a bit too weak vs the German Fleet. Also, lowered the US % from 65 to 0, can't figure why I'd have set it that way in the first place. I doubt any of that will affect our game as we probably weren't going to play that scenario. I'll send the version sent to Ottos in a little while. The others, including revised Z-plan, are the same as the ones I've sent you. Can't help changing something every time I open one of those things. Scenarios are never really finalized.

No problem if the move takes a while, as I've been advising everyone, I'm carrying a lot of games at the moment and am only able to respond a couple of times a week.

[ July 05, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kenfedoroff]

I consider myself a low/intermediate player, but I finally got the move down where you take Warsaw on the first turn (you still need to get the die rolls, of course).

Twice in a row in a pbem game now, I have taken Warsaw and both times Poland surrenders. Of course, we are only playing for fun and it doesn't mean anything as far as a league or ladder, but I can see how that would be a problem.

Ken

[Tigleth Pilisar]

I'm in for PBEM.

About cheating, I don't really care about it. I expect my opponent not to cheat, but if he does it makes victory more sweet. I don't find much point to cheating. What's more important - to be a champ in the eyes of a bunch of computer geeks or to feel the internal rush of victory won fairly? (Don't take the geeks thing too seriously ) I've won and lost - in fact Jollyguy is giving me a kicking right now! I may have learned more in the losses than the wins.

I don't see why there can't be a PBEM ladder. Just like the tourney now running. Who cares about cheating? If you are at the top of the list, but you know you cheat, what's it worth? You are wasting your time and will never know how good you really are.

I've always believed your sin will find you and destroy you. Or you reap what you sow. Or what goes around comes around. Or if you're not honest, others won't be honest with you. Basically nothing is ever done in secret - it always comes out, in time, and in ways you don't want. Funny to say, but what you do in games reflects who you are.

I'm happy to say that I have played PBEM with many guys who have put their name on this list, and I found every one of them to be high class :cool: - wouldn't even suspect cheating (mind you I wouldn't really care if they did anyway). In fact, part of the reason I bought SC was not only the fantastic design but the good quality people here on this forum - I read discussions before I bought and realized the players tended to be more serious about gaming, mature, competitive but still laid back. I liked that.

Cheaters will get taken care of by nature - just have fun with the game.

[DragonFlame]

Thanks to JerseyJohn and Iron Ranger for responding.

In the early days our A&A club we had problems with cheaters, too. We solved that mainly by disencouraging them, so I think your on the right way.

As I said before Im playing my first 2 Email games. One is going slow but the other is really a blast. We did 30 turns in 4 days! I will probably lose that game but its really great fun anyway. :cool:

SC is a very good game but the players community is making it a great thing.

So I want to thank anyone who is contributing to this community, the creators of mods and this great strategy guide and especially anyone who organizes some kind of league or tournaments, since I know how much time and work such things take.

Im in of course and I will ask some friends.

I can play up to about 2-4 games at a time.

When is this pbem league intended to start?

[Iron Ranger]

DragonFlame;

If you want to start a game I suggest you eather post in the Finder Forum or e-mail one of the respondance to this post. The idea of an orginised league at this time is only forming, to start playing (and learning)step up and contact another player.

I do suggest trying a game or too of IP to quicken your Learning curve.

[DragonFlame]

Originally posted by Iron Ranger:

DragonFlame;

If you want to start a game I suggest you eather post in the Finder Forum or e-mail one of the respondance to this post. The idea of an orginised league at this time is only forming, to start playing (and learning)step up and contact another player.

I do suggest trying a game or too of IP to quicken your Learning curve.

Well, I dont know if my internet connection will allow for an IP game.

Why do you think an IP game should quicken my learning curve? Only because it will end earlier?

BTW: How much time does an average IP game take?

(And how many turns is an SC game in general? I guess an human vs human game wont be played until one side fullfilled the victory conditions earlier, but surrendered long before in many games)

[Agamemnon]

I like playing by e-mail. My first PBEM game I conceded very early. Couldn't deal with LC gambit, I just couldn't break though the line. Also I noticed my opponent reloaded a turn 8 times so he could destroy an army. I still play by e-mail with someone who doesn't reload. The game we have going now is one where he used the LC gambit. I dealt with it and the game is still a toss up. We have had some very good games.

[jon_j_rambo]

SetBack --- "Welcome to the party pal" ---Bruce Willis in the movie Diehard. So some dude reloaded 8-times, it's a laugher eh? The s.o.b. really wanted your Army. I'm Rambo by the way & the reason I'm addressing you is to let you know I went thru the same crap in my PBEM days last year. I "showcased my game" to the world & did alot of headcracking & it invited the cheats. What's with this whimpy attitude of taking it? "We're not going to take it" --- Twisted Sister 1986, was my motto back in PBEM days. Now I'm TCP/IP only.

Hang in there & I hope you win. Oh, can't you think of something tougher than "SetBack"?

Doing my job,

Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas

[SeaMonkey]

Gen. Rambo,... correction,... "We're not going to take it", "Never did and Never will".....1968....."Tommy"...."The Who".

[Agamemnon]

Oh, can't you think of something tougher than "SetBack"?

How does Agamemnon sound. The great Mycean King.

[Flatus]

I would like to play PBEM. Have played several times up to now with a couple of different opponents. Can handle one or two more games.

[ July 13, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Flatus ]