Jet research

[Sol Invictus]

It just seems to be to easy to get to max Jet tech by '42-'43. I find it disconcerting to hear the screams of jets this early in the war. All the other techs seem about right, but something just doesnt feel right about Jets.

I really think that there should be a limit of 3 Research points that you can put in any Tech. I think this would give a more reasonable outcome for all nation's Tech advance.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

i agree with a cap to some nations tech investments, thats in number of points for each tech

[Lars]

It is a "what if" game you know.

Were they your jets or the other guys?

[KevGaming]

Jet research IMO is the defacto tech to get. Once the other guy has surpassed you in this, you generally get a good pounding from the air. Even worse if they get experience as well!

That said it would be good to limit either the number of points you can invest or maximum tech increase in any given year. IE only allow 2 points per year increase or such.

What say you?

[BiggN]

even with that kev you would stil see jets in '42.

The problem lays not with jets being there in '42 or even '41 in my game its about how strong Lv5 jets are compared to how strong Lv5 infantry or Lv5 tanks are.

[Lars]

Originally posted by KevGaming:

Jet research IMO is the defacto tech to get. Once the other guy has surpassed you in this, you generally get a good pounding from the air. Even worse if they get experience as well!

Try receiving a beating from level five AA. Suddenly Jets don't look so hot.

[Compassion]

I can't undertstand why people want to put limits on things... By the beginning of the war, research on Jets was well underway and then it was throttled back (as it were). But in this game YOU decide what technologies shold be explored.

[ August 06, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[Straha]

Originally posted by Compassion:

I can't undertstand why people want to put limits on things... By the beginning of the war, research on Jets was well underway and then it was throttled back (as it were). But in this game YOU decide what technologoes shold be explored.

Good point. Actually, the only thing where I would change something is rockets. I mean instead of starting out with "feeble" rockets, I would make rockets purchaseable only when a certain research level is achieved (maybe 4). If this should turn out to make them too unattractive, they could be made somewhat stronger to compensate.

Straha

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Straha:

Good point. Actually, the only thing where I would change something is rockets. I mean instead of starting out with "feeble" rockets, I would make rockets purchaseable only when a certain research level is achieved (maybe 4). If this should turn out to make them too unattractive, they could be made somewhat stronger to compensate.

Straha

Someone suggested in another thread that low level rocketry be considered railguns and change the graphics to match. Not a bad idea, I think. You could rename an early rocket and call it K5, 'Dora,' 'Karl," etc. and then when you hit tech level 4 rename them all to V1 and level 5's can be V2 (with corresponding graphics to match).

[Straha]

Originally posted by Compassion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Straha:

Good point. Actually, the only thing where I would change something is rockets. I mean instead of starting out with "feeble" rockets, I would make rockets purchaseable only when a certain research level is achieved (maybe 4). If this should turn out to make them too unattractive, they could be made somewhat stronger to compensate.

Straha

Someone suggested in another thread that low level rocketry be considered railguns and change the graphics to match. Not a bad idea, I think. You could rename an early rocket and call it K5, 'Dora,' 'Karl," etc. and then when you hit tech level 4 rename them all to V1 and level 5's can be V2 (with corresponding graphics to match).</font>

[Sol Invictus]

It seems to be a general occuransce, since as was mentioned, Jet airpower is so devastating. The AI will go for Jets as soon as possible and you usually end up with the Germans, British and Ameriacans at the least having them very early in the war. It's just a little strange and I think it could use some toning down. Jet fighters should be rare and toward the end of the war, '43 at the absolute earliest and shouldnt account for the majority of planes in the air by '42, as seems to be the case in most games. Just a thought.

[Aloid]

Guys, I think the way to deal with this is to make the new tech available only to newly purchased units (and existing units at an upgrade cost).

If the AI Germans in my current game get to switch all 10+ air units to jets in a one week turn, it just isn't right...

I fugure this to be an SC2 type of thing, as Hubert may have designed the active units to be only of one type at a time.

As it is, that small initial investment goes awfully far, with no costs over time. The upgrade, and new purchase costs would reflect all the retooling, etc. that has to be done.

Replacement costs for older tech units would be at the old costs...

What say Hubert?

Aloid

[ August 06, 2002, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Aloid ]

[Ancient One]

I think alot of techs need some rebalancing. Some kind of diminishing returns system is needed as well. Right now there's not really any strategy involved in research, it's just get the best tech (industrial technology) to 5, then the second best to 5, etc. The only factor that remains is luck.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I like aloid's idea of upgrding units 1 by one. especially with the german fighter arm in the battle over western europe.

[mavraam]

I would have to agree about toning down jet development. I think a good idea on all techs is to have the max level for each tech go up over time.

So, lets say, in June 1942, the max tech level you can have on Jets is 2 no matter how much R&D you put into it.

Then maybe Jan of 43, that max level goes up to 3.

By Summer of 44 its a 4 etc.

I don't know, its just an idea. The bottom line is right now, after Industrial tech, max Jet level is almost a no-brainer. And one thing us strategy nuts hate is no-brainers! There should always be trade-offs for different choices, that's where the challenge is.

[dumbo2]

I would just rename Jets to "Improved Fighters"

This would removed the disconcerting feeling of seeing jets so early but allow such innovations as the Sturmoviks and Focke Wulfe's which I take to be the result of research.

So far I have not seen the actual gameplay effect of "jets" to be any more dramatic than heavy tanks for example. if your opponent starts getting the edge then you must play catch up or suffer the consequences.

Feels pretty good to me.

[willgamer]

Right now there's not really any strategy involved in research, it's just get the best tech (industrial technology) to 5, then the second best to 5, etc. The only factor that remains is luck.

I agree. Random ideas:

Perhaps the industrial tech. should go up by 1 automatically each year.

How about "researching espionage" to steal other nation's techs.

What if every time you fight and destroy a point of a higher tech than you posess, you gain increase your chance to discover.

Cheers to a already great game!

[Sol Invictus]

Dumbo, I've tried to do the whole, It's just improved fighters on the road to actual jets thing but when the unit icon turns into a delta wing jet and the sounds is a jet engine, it gets difficult. I just think the Tech could use some tweaking; maybe in a patch or in SC2. Still loving the game.

[dumbo2]

LOL yeah the sounds do kinda destroy any pretence that its not a jet engine

Very true.

[Straha]

Originally posted by Sol Invictus:

Dumbo, I've tried to do the whole, It's just improved fighters on the road to actual jets thing but when the unit icon turns into a delta wing jet and the sounds is a jet engine, it gets difficult. I just think the Tech could use some tweaking; maybe in a patch or in SC2. Still loving the game.

Actually, the jets even used to kick in one stage earlier in the beta demo. Maybe things would be better with only the very last step having jet sound? (Though this would mess up the most beautiful unit mod for SC).

Straha

[Sol Invictus]

Straha, that is what I have been thinking. That would be an easy fix till SC2 and a new and more detailed research model is introduced. I bet developers really love it when people who love the game nitpik it to death with stuff like this. It's only because we adore it Hubert and have aspirations for it as we would our own children.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by mavraam:

I would have to agree about toning down jet development. I think a good idea on all techs is to have the max level for each tech go up over time.

So, lets say, in June 1942, the max tech level you can have on Jets is 2 no matter how much R&D you put into it.

Then maybe Jan of 43, that max level goes up to 3.

By Summer of 44 its a 4 etc.

Despite the fact that Germany flew it's first jet engine aircraft in August 1939, the AI seems way too hell-bent on flying an entire luftflotte of the things by '42. I like this tech-limit-by-year idea. I'd rather be fighting WW2 with WW2 technology until 1944 or so.

[Silvercloud]

I think the problem here is not the actual speed of the technology but the ease of acquiring it.... I don't like the idea of 'buying' a research point. I'd like to see a percentage investment that can be set (eg a slider between tech & production), limited in some way (eg you can't make major changes to it on a week to week basis, just maybe 1-2% change per week or up to a 100% per year). This would allow you to go full out on research if you wanted. As well research should then be stacked in some way.

Eg each tech costs a certain amount of research points.

My idea would be that it would be best to develop a country based tech scheme (including such developments as tank (tiger), plane (fw-190a) etc... and incorporate that into the game) maybe following the panzer general scheme on overstrength (only for elite units - reflecting their superiority) and then buy these units as army groups and to upgrade them you'd have to spend a turn upgrading them (so no automatic upgrades)...

Ofcourse this is just a dream and maybe too far flung....

[Titan]

Good point silver cloud i support that idea.

With all the good ideas comming Hubert should rename the next one if there is going to one WIF2,but seriously he has done a great job for his first and the games simplicity is the Key with it,but always room for improvement

[gunnergoz]

I'd like to research specific weapons/tanks/aircraft (real, planned or what if's). This could be a visual mod but implies a somewhat more complicated research module.

Definitely should have some built-in means of discouraging research point reallocations too often.