willgamer Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I've had research advances (as high as level 5 armor ) but no advances ever show up in the Last Turn Summary. Also in the table of all countries' advances, I can only see my countrie's technology improvements. Is that by design? IMHO this is an extremely well abstracted game with an excellent AI. The feedback is indicating to me that "selling" the design philosophy may be a major challenge. I'm pleased that HC is both willing to listen, but tough to hang on to his vision for this. Way to go Hubert!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Willgamer, Originally posted by willgamer: I've had research advances (as high as level 5 armor ) but no advances ever show up in the Last Turn Summary. The Last Turn Summary tells you what happened during the previuos enemy turn. Also in the table of all countries' advances, I can only see my countrie's technology improvements. Is that by design? Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 In the final, will there be a full on end game summary availble with full stats for both sides for the number cruncher in us all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 No promises yet, but it could very well be in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willgamer Posted May 24, 2002 Author Share Posted May 24, 2002 SuperTed: Are you saying that the End of Turn Summary will inform me of my opponents research progress, but I will have to make a pencil and paper note of it since the game will not remember it for me? Bummer! I hate taking notes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by willgamer: SuperTed: Are you saying that the End of Turn Summary will inform me of my opponents research progress, but I will have to make a pencil and paper note of it since the game will not remember it for me? Bummer! I hate taking notes! Willgamer, No, sir. What you get in the summary is declarations of war, captured cities/ports/etc., and destroyed units. The research information is protected by Fog of War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 I don't think that FOW should absolutely cloak any knowledge of the enemy's research levels. Having battle contact alone should supply you with pertinent information. E.g. when the Germans got into contact with the first T34, they *knew* how far the Russians were in tank technology. No need to even spy! The same goes when the Allies encountered the first Me262s. So I'd say we should have the general info, but a little bit "distorted" with FOW on. Straha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Maybe it wouldn't necessarily be revealed for that particular type of encounter. Were those upgraded tanks, or was that just a particularly nasty result? If known beforehand, it gives away too much. For instance, would the British continue bombing, it they know that the Germans have already achieved A-A radar? After multiple instances, it becomes apparent, which the descerning player will soon realize. If your tanks regularly are getting outmatched, you have to assume he has gotten some research points. If you see units at 11 or 12 strength ("but this one goes to eleven...") you'll know that the enemy has tech upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloid Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by Straha: I don't think that FOW should absolutely cloak any knowledge of the enemy's research levels. Having battle contact alone should supply you with pertinent information. E.g. when the Germans got into contact with the first T34, they *knew* how far the Russians were in tank technology. No need to even spy! The same goes when the Allies encountered the first Me262s. So I'd say we should have the general info, but a little bit "distorted" with FOW on. StrahaHmm.. that brings up an interesting point... I've not noticed, but do all units that get a bonus from research, get it immediately? Would be more chrome to have to pay to upgrade units, and of course new units would already have the upgrade (and cost more?)... hmmm... probably does not add that much in playability... Aloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by R_Leete: Maybe it wouldn't necessarily be revealed for that particular type of encounter. Were those upgraded tanks, or was that just a particularly nasty result? If known beforehand, it gives away too much. For instance, would the British continue bombing, it they know that the Germans have already achieved A-A radar? After multiple instances, it becomes apparent, which the descerning player will soon realize. If your tanks regularly are getting outmatched, you have to assume he has gotten some research points. If you see units at 11 or 12 strength ("but this one goes to eleven...") you'll know that the enemy has tech upgrades.Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Those encounters usually ended with capturing specimens of those units soon enough. T34 comes to mind at once. Of course, the combatants did not know what exactly the enemy was researching at any given time, or how far they are in it (atomic bomb), but once applied the secret was out, even with less "obvious" things like radar. What we are talking about right now is simply not an issue for FOW, which should apply to enemy unit positons and movement alone. Straha Edit: it would be good idea to reveal the pertinent information only when sufficient contact was made with new enemy assets, though. Or, for the sake of abstraction, simply delay that info for some turns. [ May 24, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Straha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Straha, I think I do get what you mean. And, your edit seems to be what I'm getting at. If you have gone so far as to "capture" an enemy unit, that means you've either destroyed that unit (through multiple attacks), or weakened it enough that it withdraws. Which means you've taken the ground, and found the hulks. So, it stands to reason that after those encounters, judging from the toughness of that unit, that you'd know that it was upgraded. So, mentally, you know, but the game won't inform you. Just something the more experienced player gets a feel for, in the course of the campaign. Incidentally, don't the tank icons change as you upgrade? I havent encountered any upgraded units, so I don't know if they show enemy upgrades, or just your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 If the icons change, then this already is something. It's just that *only* being able to gauge the effects of enemy research by "feeling" that something fails more often than it used to, is a bit too diffuse for my liking. There was always more intelligence than that, even without espionage. But it seems that we do not disagree in this so much after all. Straha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Guys, When a new research level is achieved, the graphics and appropriate unit values (including maximum strength) of the affected units will usually change immediately to reflect this. EDIT: The reason I say "usually" is that the graphics don't always change but the values do. This applies to the following research categories: Anti-Tank---------------Corps and Army Heavy Tank-------------Tank Anti-Aircraft------------Strategic Resources Long-Range Aircraft---Air Fleet, Strategic Bomber, and Carrier Jet Aircraft-------------Air Fleet, Strategic Bomber, and Carrier Heavy Bomber---------Strategic Bomber Sonar-------------------Battleship, Cruiser, and Carrier Advanced Sub----------Submarine Gun Laying Radar------Battleship and Cruiser Of course, the enemy will not see evidence of the improvements until a unit is spotted. [ May 24, 2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: SuperTed ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 And, again, SuperTed saves the day! Straha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by Straha: But it seems that we do not disagree in this so much after all. Straha In essence, I guess we were both almost correct. Okay, time to start the incessant "when will it be released" threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willgamer Posted May 25, 2002 Author Share Posted May 25, 2002 Since I'm 0 for 2, I may as well go for broke. ST, then are you saying that if FOW is on, the End of Turn Research Development will always just say "(none)"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Originally posted by willgamer: Since I'm 0 for 2, I may as well go for broke. ST, then are you saying that if FOW is on, the End of Turn Research Development will always just say "(none)"?Willgamer, You are now 1 for 3! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient One Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Yeah, once when I played as the Allies I had the French build a tank and was surprised that it was about twice the size of the German tanks (French begin game with +1 in Heavy Tanks). :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Originally posted by Ancient One: Yeah, once when I played as the Allies I had the French build a tank and was surprised that it was about twice the size of the German tanks (French begin game with +1 in Heavy Tanks). :cool: AO, You should see the +5 jets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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