Sovjet Strategy

[arby]

Originally posted by Jollyguy:

However, I believe with modest gameplay tweaks, teh Allies will stand a better chance. Adjustments to research, and a second or third capital in Russia, and a few more chits and/or advances to the Allies, will give the Allies a better chance of hanging on by their fingernails until they can turn the tide.

I'm not so sure any more. I actually think that a knowledge of WWII history is a serious handicap to someone playing this game, because it leads them into using that history as a model for game play. I know that's what happened to me: as the Axis player, I regarded Russia as the most serious opponent, and geared up for them. I knew the effectiveness of the German Blitzkrieg strategy, so I devoted a lot of resources to tanks, both building them and researching them. On the Allied side, once I learned that the Russians were pretty much useless, I concentrated on developing airpower for the Western Allies.

And you know what? Doesn't matter. The key to this game is breathtakingly simple for the Axis player: build planes, and research Industrial Tech, LR air, and jets, in that order. You cannot lose. I've got two games going on now, with different players, where the German player has L0 tanks, and he's kicked my butt all the way across Russia. Why? Because he's got to about L4 in L/R air, which means he can concentrate his entire air on any spot on the Eastern Front. And he's got a lot of it. He's also got about 3 or 4 fleets on the Western Front, which is all he needs: he can reach anywhere in England with his air. If I dare create an air fleet, he'll blow it up. After the US comes in, he may eventually have to station a couple more air fleets in France, but by doing so he ensures that he will always have air supremacy.

Admittedly, there are some other aspects of the game which help the German, experience being the greatest. Even an L0 tank, at 2 experience, will cost a corps at least 3 or 4 strength points, often at no cost to the tank group. And you don't want to know what an L2 airfleet with 2 experience, backed up by a HQ with a couple of points itself, will do to the exact same opponent, but one without the experience levels.

Production plays a substantial part, too. By mid-1942 the German player will be getting about 500 MPP's a turn, and will usually be at level 5 Ind Tech. By the same point, the American player will be lucky to be at L3. This means that Germany is outproducing America by a 5:1 ratio. Yeah, I know, the German also has to deal with the Russians, who are getting 400 MPP's a turn. So what? If the German player loses 50 MPP's a turn on the Eastern Front, it's a lot; he can replace those losses, plus build another air fleet every turn or two. The Russian has to use his entire stock of MPP's simply to replace the corps that he loses each turn.

The latter problem may be partially solved by tweaks to the tech system; by starting out with four or five techs instead of one, the American player might be able to get up to Ind Tech 5 by mid-1942, too. (In which case the German player will only be outproducing him by a 2 1/2 to 1 margin.)

But that's not going to solve the problem. Norse can talk all he wants about his Soviet strategy, and I think it's a smart one, but it's going to be useless against a German player with lots of planes and LR air. The way this game is set up, it's relatively simple for the German player to obtain complete air supremacy on both fronts. And once he does that, the game's a foregone conclusion.

I'm not going to get into another "is air power too strong?" debate; as I said when that thread was being kicked around, I don't think the point can be disputed by anybody who didn't flatline their last EEG. You may be able to argue whether there were instances of air power alone essentially eliminating an entire corps or army in WWII; what is indisuptable is that that was not a routine practice, as it is in this game. If that alone were the problem, I could forgive it; but the lack of a limitation on how much air power any player can amass is an even greater digression from historical reality, and one that completely destroys any semblance of game balance and, to be blunt, most of the enjoyment from the game.

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by arby:

[QB ] Production plays a substantial part, too. By mid-1942 the German player will be getting about 500 MPP's a turn, and will usually be at level 5 Ind Tech. By the same point, the American player will be lucky to be at L3. This means that Germany is outproducing America by a 5:1 ratio. Yeah, I know, the German also has to deal with the Russians, who are getting 400 MPP's a turn. So what? If the German player loses 50 MPP's a turn on the Eastern Front, it's a lot; he can replace those losses, plus build another air fleet every turn or two. The Russian has to use his entire stock of MPP's simply to replace the corps that he loses each turn.

The latter problem may be partially solved by tweaks to the tech system; by starting out with four or five techs instead of one, the American player might be able to get up to Ind Tech 5 by mid-1942, too. (In which case the German player will only be outproducing him by a 2 1/2 to 1 margin.) [/QB]

What I would do is give the Russians some off-map

MPPs. How many did Siberia represent in the real

war? Tons (both resources and manpower). How

many in SC? Zip. Bump the Russians up to 700

MPPs at the start, and I think that problem will

be solved. This of course does not preclude

other additional solutions mentioned here and

elsewhere (I am in favor of oil restricting any

and all units dependent on it, for ex.).

John DiFool

[arby]

Originally posted by John DiFool:

What I would do is give the Russians some off-map MPPs. How many did Siberia represent in the real war? Tons (both resources and manpower). How many in SC? Zip. Bump the Russians up to 700

MPPs at the start, and I think that problem will

be solved.

I don't, although I think it would help. I think the game has a number of problems in accurately recreating what happened on the Russian Front:

1. Air power. There is no way the Russian player can ever get air superiority, even in a particular sector of the front. Even with tweaks to research, the Soviet player is never going to be able to match the German air in numbers, range, or experience. That means that any offensive strategy goes out the window.

2. Experience. Experience arguably plays too large a part in the combat results, plus it is too easily acquired on the offensive and almost impossible to acquire on the defensive.

3. HQ's. They're indispensable on the offensive, and close to useless on the defensive, particularly on the Russian front: an HQ will oftentimes affect only the rear elements of a defensive line, instead of the front elements, and is easily susceptible to destruction from an opponent with air superiority.

4. Lack of winter effect. This was certainly decisive in 1941, and also had a substantial effect in later years. The game ignores it completely.

5. MPP's. The Russian MPP's through most of 1941 are barely enough to replace losses; after that, they don't even do that. Increasing them by about 200 would help, but it wouldn't even address the other problems.

[Jollyguy]

A simple solution to the overpowering airpower strategy (which I employ myself as the Axis), would be to expand the benefits of anti-air research to all units. For each advance, units in the field could have their anti-air defense raised by some fraction of what the resource and city hexes get. Reason would be that fixed AA deployed to the cities/resources areas would be more capable than the mobile type.

Another option would be a mobile anti-air unit. Range of 1 to begin with, meaning it wouuld only protect immediately adjacent units at first, improving it's range and power with each advance.

[SeaMonkey]

How do the germans initially get the advantage? By use of MPPs gained early from plunder and applied to tech. Take that away from them. How? Get allied plunder MPPs early/redistribute forces. Think about it, the allies, excluding Russia have 6 airfleets (Malta,French,Homeland, and 3CVs). I've played many scenarios, gamey and otherwise, human and AI as opponents, experimented with all this forum's suggestions plus some, IMO the game is balanced, a little luck is what turns it given 2 equal opponents. Saw "Midway" again last night, Nimitz quote on what Mack would say "Were we just better or were we lucky".

[arby]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

How do the germans initially get the advantage? By use of MPPs gained early from plunder and applied to tech. Take that away from them. How? Get allied plunder MPPs early/redistribute forces. Think about it, the allies, excluding Russia have 6 airfleets (Malta,French,Homeland, and 3CVs). I've played many scenarios, gamey and otherwise, human and AI as opponents, experimented with all this forum's suggestions plus some, IMO the game is balanced, a little luck is what turns it given 2 equal opponents. Saw "Midway" again last night, Nimitz quote on what Mack would say "Were we just better or were we lucky".

Skip the AI. I don't know how many human opponents you've had, or how "equal" they were, but I've had people try that gamey crap when I was Axis, like invading Portugal to pick up some MPP's, (check what happens to American war readiness when the Allies DOW neutral countries), or using carriers as air fleets. The latter's real fun; if you check, you'll find that air fleets have three times the air-to-air combat value of carriers, plus the German air fleets have HQ's and the carriers don't.

I've played probably close to three dozen PBEM games by now, evenly split between Axis and Allies. I've lost once as Axis, and it was bad luck and my stupidity: I didn't keep air stationed back in France and allowed him to build up his, he got to L5 jets (both UK and US), and I was stuck on L2 for ten straight turns. I win most of the time as Allies, because, not to put too fine a spin on it, I'm pretty damned good. But if I'm playing Allies against someone who knows what they're doing, I know that it's better than even money that I'm going to get beat like a red-headed stepchild.

[ October 23, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: arby ]

[SeaMonkey]

RB sounds like we need a PBEM, I'll take allies and promise I won't use Norse's gamey DoW of Italy. You do know what your are doing, right?

[Fubarno]

Jollyguy, I like your suggestion that AA research extend to unit capabilities and not just reflect city defence.

I don't know about the mobile AA unit suggestion. This is Grand Strategy gaming.

[ October 23, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Fubarno ]

[Russ Bensing]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

RB sounds like we need a PBEM, I'll take allies and promise I won't use Norse's gamey DoW of Italy. You do know what your are doing, right?

I'll try and muddle my way through. You'll get your turn tomorrow.

[dgaad]

Try out the Historicity Mod, which was designed with better PBEM play balance in mind.

The Game Stuff Site - Historicity Mod for SC

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by dgaad:

Try out the Historicity Mod, which was designed with better PBEM play balance in mind.

The Game Stuff Site - Historicity Mod for SC

Sounds like some good use of the Campaign Editor here, how about sending these to Otto at otto@ww2n.com for his SCHQ site as he already has a few custom campaigns and other goodies.

Hubert

[ October 23, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Hubert Cater ]

[arby]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

RB sounds like we need a PBEM, I'll take allies and promise I won't use Norse's gamey DoW of Italy. You do know what your are doing, right?

By the way, it'd help if I had your email address.

[SeaMonkey]

bradtap@aol.com and updating to 1.05/all coutries random/disable undo/i'll need the Siberians. Can probably do a move a day, usually @ night, I'm in CDT. Lookin forward to it, Thanks.

[roub]

Hello,

Many good advise, but from the start just a strange thing :

Making soviet defence line toward Smolensk.

It's not the good place to do it, why ? because no river, no marsh, no forest, and if smolensk falldown you will get chance of siberian renfort.

So where's my line you say ? best thing 4 hex behind smolensk, on moscow and behind the line of river.

I usually quickly put one of the 2 soviet tank in moscow and an army in the hex SE of moscow, with entre 6 the tank will be hard to move.

Air superiority : in many 39 scenario the german have to much time for building a big air fleet 8-10 planes ( but 25 planes never seen ), and with a good LR it became realy tuff for soviet HQ.

Actually, I play a home rule with a friend of mine, we can't do LR research. It's tuff for UK CV but it's a good way to still have a feeling of big mother russia ( the german loose time to creat consentration of AF ).

That all see you online.

Roub

"Life is a bitch.... them you die."

[Sombra]

Just a few thoughts:

It seems that you are playing without bids? As other players commented before in this case Germany will simply build up a huge amry has the MP advantage => Game over for the allies.

Is you are playing with bids 200MP+ (1:5:20) You have quite alot of opporuniteis for Rusia. Aggressive defense , Turkey=> with a push toward Iraq to balance the MPs , Finnland. Worst thng IMHO is to simply give up the first good defense lines. If the Axis is allowed to advance to fast into Rusia the western front won´t have time to build up for the allies. Aggressive defense means to strategcally destroy axis advance units NOT an all out attack on the Germans.

In the West the Allies need a little bit of luck . They mainly rely on their carriers to build up an air superioty . The trick is with advanced JT the carriers get more deadly against axis airfleets meanwhile the Axis AF will have "only the attack value from AF aginst ships" but this value won´t move to higher levels with JT.

Point is a carrier with JT 3-4 LR2-3 is absolutly deadly for the axis air.(with enough experience) Putting only 4 AF (axis) (Splitting your air) in the West is a "beginners" mistake (IMHO). It will only work if you are way superior in JT. If not they will be wiped out and you will miss these AF in the east to put pressure on Rusia.

[Curry]

The game has changed so much from when these posts were written. Look at the dates. But it is an interesting read for fun. If you are new believe Sombra.

[Liam]

Whoa, 25 airfleets, Xs 400 is what?

Originally posted by Lou Wigman:

This strategy won't work. The human v human side of the game is seriously broken. In every game so far the Axis has about 25 airfleets by late 1942. Most of these are bedecked with medals. The ground units too are complete veterans. The entire French coastline is lined with corps backed up by 10 airfleets. The rest is grinding the USSR into pulp in a WWI style battle of attrition. The USSR will lose more corps than it is able to replace and gradually becomes weaker. The Western Allies are utterly powerless to do anything about it. I have just about thrown in the towel with SC. Some serious adjustments need to be made to play balance.

[santabear]

There is a lot of good advice here. I also recommend looking at Terif's recommendations in the players guide (or whatever it's called now).

Yes, air is too powerful when jets appear. And no, it's not realistic for WWII. The only defense that I know of is to build an air force that can tackle whatever your opponent has--that is the only air defence that's available in SC--air superiority. If you can achieve air parity, the game becomes an MPP contest again.

The "problem" is that this approach reduces SC to a random game: Whoever gets luckier with JT and LR air "dice rolls" usually wins.

This is what's led to "house rules," "gentlemens' agreements" and so forth to limit the role of air in HVH games. And if you play against AI and invest heavily in air, you will always win.

Hopefully SC2 is addresing this foible. In the meantime, it's possible to work around it and to have a great deal of fun with the game.

[Liam]

A little advice to your newer players about the balance between the Axis and Allies.

Germans after Fall of France to cut up the Minors or they will not have sufficient MPPs or Research<plus land/air units> to kill Russia and defend France.

Russia can defend itself and in some instances go on the offensive with a good Bid<a Bid will give Russia between 4000 and 8000 MPPs, with 5 chits in AT or Jets it is just a matter of time before research evens itself>

The Western Allies properly played can plow France and likely take the Rhine and Berlin within a year. Depending on how well the Germans know how to defend and how much of their resources are concentrated on taking Russia it can be very hard for even a Skilled Axis to take down 25-35 Corps behind rivers, in marshes, in mountains, Tanks on citys and do it in time to operate back over to save their butts from the West who by that time may have 8-9 Jets, 4-5 Carriers all 3-4 Star and that is that is the end...

To summize if you're having trouble beating the Axis with your Allies, if you're not doing the 1:5:20 or 1:5:30 bidding system, with 200-300 on your side you're just not a very good Ally. It's standard and workable and just about every Allied player I've lost to or beaten did fairly even at some point considering Axis had their proper early Economic breakthroughs with these figures... The Bidding system is 'fairly accurate' and Experience is not the Key. Western Allies have Experience, so Wermacht does too, but doesn't mean that the Germans stand a chance against if Russia cannot be broken in time. Once Allies get LR and Uber Carriers game is gone. They can practically clear France in a matter of 6-12 turns... Cutting off the North African Corridor and soaking up a huge amount of MPPs, with massive Corps landings, cutting of Scandanavia-any open citys...Forcing the Axis to commit anywhere from 5-10-15 corps to the West to just 'hold'

you need to learn to use the Russians. Take Finland with a 5000 bid, take Turkey... Post those tanks fully entrenched with 2 or 3 corps on a line. When 1 line breaks, have 2-3 Armor in the Rear with an Army to crack the opening units, fill back in with Corps. You do not have to operate your HQs so far foward with Tanks as they have the movement... Axis air will only go so far... You'll find taking Riga can take 6 months...Moscow doesn't garauntee Axis Victory. I was in a game vs Rambo the other night I had Moscow if I wanted it, Rostov in the South, but he had cut through Turkey and into Iraq and I was out of time and that was that. Likely had Russia, but Allies had my Flank and it was going to go. Even if I could've taken Russia it would've taken much too long.. It was the Summer of '42. Allies had been in France since '41 and Italy-Spain-N.Africa were all going Green... I had superb defense but Allied Research was giving them Jets before me and LR, along with decent AT for USA. I was unable to hold against their climbing experience. Given Iraq was a factor by late game, not early... The Allies put the pressure on... They held Syria-Egypt till late late, allowing for a last minute Turkey-Iraq Blitz... Even without that factor... All was reliant on Germany taking Russia down which was much more likely given that... Russia stripped the Eastern front and went right into the Desert with many armors and cleaned up... This game has many more strategic and tacticaly possiblities

Look a them, examine your opponent and emulate them and you'll beat anything

Russia can in some instances go on the offensive. Or the West can... Depends on research, bit of luck, early play... If they cannot game then was decided by poor decisions before the flop of Barbarossa ever hit and by the Turn of D-Day and the River of Take German Resources/or the Rhine game is decided for them

Other way around flop poor Allied play in France, too much MPPs for the Germans too much research excess Airfleets, subs, ground units and any minors they want... game is decided before the Turn in Barbarossa for them and the River Moscow-or London.. Either can be taken easily by this point

[waysloppy]

I am Russia in a scenario starting right before the german invasion of Russia. I cannot use these tactics because I have no time to do so. Any suggestions?

[Liam]

Originally posted by waysloppy:

I am Russia in a scenario starting right before the german invasion of Russia. I cannot use these tactics because I have no time to do so. Any suggestions?

Sloppy, build a bunch of corps behind the lines. Add up what you can afford and what you can expend totally.. Try to link up from Riga down through the Rivers, Prippets<forget about Odessa and Kiev> Minsk, Riga- and the Dnieper River where behind lys 2 extremely valuable Mines you want to hold onto. In fact that region of Ukraine is valuable due to have having 3 mines. You can easily use about 10-15 corps to do this. Depending on the strength of your German Counterpart. If he's too strong, well, and you've no bid you're in trouble!

Use Armor on your Citys and in general remeber units in Marshes are better for defense worse on offense. It's hard to kill Marsh Units. Forests also offer some defense bonus and the Rivers half the enemy's attack strength. You want to use all this to your advantage. Another important factor for Russia<TAKE FINLAND> Do not let it be Axis, go right in, using Amphibious matched assualts or at least 3 fighters and several tanks and smash that puppy the minute you've got the time. Use Zhukov so he can get an Exp. Point or Two to use against the Germans in South hard pressing your flanks. I would try not to engage the Luftwaffe for a long while. And meanwhile in the West I do hope that you've US Military and British Air?

You'll find Tanks are important, and so are good rated HQs.. Fighters are useless and if you can draw the German's West you can probably take the pressure off your Eastern Front but you better be winning on one of them. AT and Jet Technology are two big options. That are purely AT and if you've no AA rule, exploit since your opponent exploited you on the bid rule

[waysloppy]

OK thanks, I understand what you are talking about for the most part. Could you explain your last sentence about AT and AA and bid rule. Whats bid rule?

[Liam]

Sloppy, you're going to need to read the book

and also read Terif's Notes...

If you look at the Sticky's you've got Bill Macon and Terif and a few other guys critiqueing strategy for newbies you're a way way too newbie to be asking these sort of questions if you do not understand the basics like bidding or AT AA Tech...

But regardless I will say bidding is buying the Axis by paying off the Allies to make the game more balanced.

AT is Anti-Tank Weapons and AA is Anti-Air research which is entirely useless

Read those guides 3-4 times and hot-seat practice basic tactics, principles and ask more questions open a topic in fact, you'll get a lot of helpful fellows on the boards who'll explain every little facet to you. Good luck m8

<Hey I'm the Eternal rook, I think I've got the highest loss record on SC, but I've also got just 2 guys who I cannot beat so far >

[Friendly Fire]

Lou, if you want to play a game let me know. You will NOT be able to purchase 25 airfleets if I am Allied with any reasonable bid.

FF

[Liam]

Originally posted by Friendly Fire:

Lou, if you want to play a game let me know. You will NOT be able to purchase 25 airfleets if I am Allied with any reasonable bid.

FF

Friendly, personally, if you buy 25 airfleets as Axis against me and I'm Allies<intend to lose the game> as you'll have to disband your entire army, fleet, HQ and whatever else you have and spend 0 on tech...

Hmmm..You could probably defeat a guy like this with nothing but Carriers, as he'd have level0 German airfleets...