Diplomacy ... House Rule?

[Shaka of Carthage]

There are three (3) neutrals, that have a major effect on the way SC plays. Spain, Sweden and Turkey. For reasons that have been discussed, they don't work properly in SC. Since it appears we will have no more patches and adding one dimensional House Rules doesn't give alot of flexibility, how about this.

Lets design a optional Diplomacy rule that we can currently use in SC to determine what actions the majors take regarding these minors.

This is just the rough concept to give you an idea of what I was thinking.

DiploChits

Beginning of each year, Germany gets one (1) Diplomatic chit (DiploChit), as well as the UK. In the case of the three (3) neutrals mentioned above, any DoW against one of them requires you to use a DiploChit. You announce it to your opponent, since he can counter by using his DiploChit. If you combine the ability to force your opponent to DoW on one of those neutrals, say if you have three (3) DiploChits, then taking action against Sweden, Spain or Turkey has diplomatic consequences, just like real life.

So if Germany wanted to invade Spain, and UK wanted to prevent it, they both burn one DiploChit each.

Germany wants to invade Sweden it would cost a DiploChit.

UK doesn't counter any of these actions, then in a few years, it can "force" the Axis to DoW against Turkey (making them Allied), since it has enough DiploChits and Germany doesn't have enough to counter.

This would reflect the real possiblity that if Germany hit Sweden and Spain, Turkey would be concerned about its own "neutraility" and would side with Russia.

Vichy France is a tough one. I think in this case, that Germany can DoW against them if they want, but UK gets a DiploChit as a bonus. Ireland or Portugal getting invaded by Allies gives Germany a DiploChit.

A simple manual Diplomacy system that adds some real strategical thought to the actions we take. Boardgamers use optional rules like this all the time to increase the playability of thier favorite games. Why not us, especially since we can expect no patch in the near future? There is enough brain power on this forum (though some of it appears to be naturally or chemically altered) to come up with something better than the above in the meantime.

[Some_God]

Wow ... thats a great idea. I think we should ... we can keep SC alive by "modding"(not really modding) it the same way Half-Life was kept alive for 5 years, and now HL2 is announced.

[JerseyJohn]

Great Idea Shaka , I'm all for it.

[jon_j_rambo]

It doesn't work.

[Iron Ranger]

Shaka,

A nice read and an interesting idea. Take this with a grain of salt, your getting close to this idea:

The siberian transfer was the first turning point in the war and is, in any game not played the cookie cutter route. To have it controled by the side that doen't benifit by the results is wrong. The same situation would result if the axis could only attack the countries the allies said were OK to DOW.

Hmmmm, axis controls when the ST is triggered. Allies control what countrys the axis can DOW. I might even play test that if you wish, no other HRs expect the landing one, I'll take germany also.

Just having alittle fun on Friday night, but the play test offer stands.

[Kuniworth]

What we need is a better editor. I wish there was a real hacker outthere that could create an editor so we can stop all those discussions.

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

Perhaps not, but could you suggest some way where it might?

House Rules of any kind are awkward, but a little diplomacy would be good.

[jon_j_rambo]

Jersey --- The SDR (Shaka DiplioCard Rule) doesn't work at all. Why? Simple, the Germans are screwed. They can't attack Spain/Sweden/Turkey. Both Axis/Allies get a "Card" per year. Therefore impossible to attack anything. The only case if I was Allies, would allow Germany to attack Sweden. At that point Allies would have extra "Card", just force Axis DOW on Turkey or Spain after Barbarossa has started. That simple, unless I dont' understand SDR.

My bitch with the minors is their supplies suck & no HQ. They can't even reinforce to strength-10 in their own Capital? What's with that?

The fixes belong to Hubert, MadMatt, & Moon. Where would Hubert & friends find time? Simple, quit reading all the Forum post all day & instead fix the game. It's sad to see a great game we've all been playing for nearly a year, play tested to death, just go to the shelf.

Hubert, MadMatt, & Moon --- Finish what you started. Money isn't everything, if you don't fix SC, it will haunt you 10+years from now. I will give you my favorite counter to that line,"Money isn't everything, unless you don't have it" --- Jett (James Dean) from the classic 1956 movie Giant.

[JerseyJohn]

Well said my friend, one of the forum's best posts.

Cudos to Shaka for coming up with the idea and cudos to you for finding it's flaws. Hopefully something along these lines will solve the problem; some diplomacy would add a lot.

We've got a thread going right now with some good suggestions based upon everyone's ideas over the past several months.

One more big push and this game is home free! It's worth it, why leave it half done, why leave it good when it could be great instead?

[ August 22, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Leopard]

Shaka,

It is an excellent suggestion and course of action, and an interesting idea. We should work to develop new house rules and modifications if it increases the staying power of SC. Brainstorming in the forum is the best way to develop such ideas.

My first reactions to this were:

1. The UK should be doubly penalised for invading the Low Countries or other traditional allies, with the exception of Vichy France (viewed more as a liberation).

2. Turkey and The Baltic States have too dramatic an impact upon USSR readiness to be included in this rule.

3. The historical countries invaded by the Axis should be impossible for the Allies to gain a diplomatic advantage from.

4. DOW on majors and Canada could be worth more.

5. Axis should not gain a large advantage from not invading some countries they historically invaded. They were bad even if they had spared Greece and Denmark.

Very good direction of ideas which could allow continued playability of this game. Something we can control as SC owners.

[ August 22, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Leopard ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Hubert, MadMatt, & Moon --- What's up with new patches for SC? What's up with SC-2? What's up in general? I know somebody reads every silly little post so a response would be nice. Hey, why not make Sir Jersey & myself moderators.

Here's an idea for battlefront.com --- you guys need to make coin, bank, & jack. So get get some balls, buy a plane ticket to Arkansas, & sit outside the Purchasing Agent's office at Walmart!!! HOI is on the shelf at Walmart. Become salespeople. Show them how you've patched this game 7-times (and possibly more). Then goto Babbages, CompUSA, whoever! Air Travel is cheap now.

Get a sack (& some plane tickets to Arkansas),

Legend

[JerseyJohn]

"Hey, why not make Sir Jersey & myself moderators."

I don't give it much chance, but if asked I'd gladly accept.

Like the marketing idea -- it would work. Every time I go to stores that sell software I always see guys looking at WW II and strategy games and most of the time they're wondering why there isn't a Windows version of either Hicom or COS.

They'd buy SC in a minute!

As fate would have it we're being hit by a lightening storm, a promising night of buzzing ideas cut short on my end by the Forces of Nature.

Keep hitting it General Rambo, your message is going out loud and clear; I just hope the receivers are working.

[ August 23, 2003, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

I'm not going to list the names of the people I'm responding to, since some of the comments are the same.

Allies controlling the nations that Axis can DoW on... The only three (3) nations that are effected by this are Spain, Sweden and Turkey. Its not really necessary for me to list why those three are a problem in SC is it?

Hack an editor... Thats not ethical. Even if someone did it, no matter how badly we could use it, I would be one of the first stating that the person should be banned. Hacking a retail product is equivalent to intellectual rape. The offer to produce a unit editor for SC has been made twice by myself. If given permission, it could be produced kinda like a shareware product, nothing fancy, but it will get the job done.

Impossible for Axis to attack Spain, Sweden, Turkey... That would be correct for either side. But it also opens up the diplomatic side of strategy, since not contesting it, gives you a DiploChit (aka DiploCard) advantage you can use later, as was pointed out. Now, Allies invading the Low Countries, Ireland and Portugal have diplomatic consequences, as they should. You need a three (3) DiploChit advantage, so unless Germany has invaded Sweden AND Spain, no way Turkey can be brought in until '43.

Low Countries .... Excellent point. By giving a DiploChit to Germany, it now has the diplomatic penalties everyone has always complained about, in addition to the US readiness drop of a few months.

Turkey .... Unless you know something I don't, no one DoWs on Turkey until after Russia is in the war. Same reasoning that would force Turkey into the Allied fold would be just as much of a reason to force Russia to get ready for war faster.

Other nations ... You don't gain or lose DiploChits against any other nations. So the historical invasions or lack have no effect.

bitching against Battlefront or Mr H. Its kind of pointless. They are running a business making business decisions based on information we are not privy to. We can critize the decision(s), but after that, accept it for what it is and move on by dealing with it. When they are ready to give us SC 2 information, they will tell us. Constantly asking them for it doesn't do any good. I don't think anyone here wants a Unit Editor worse than I do, since its gotten to the point I can't stomach playing SC anymore without limits. And my carrier tolerance is just about gone. But until we are given the ok to produce an editor, we either make do with what we have or use House Rules.

I know I am not the only one, they may just be part of the silent lurkers out there. When gamers are unhappy with what they are playing, they change the rules. We can't change the software code in SC, but we can sure be creative about how those rules are used.

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Not bitching at them, emphasizing the point that many, if not most, of the potential customers are unaware that this game exists. I've had little conversations with total strangers mentioning they should go to Battlefront.com and look into this game and it's amazing how many of them shrug and say they don't do things through the Internet. It's also amazing how many of them don't read computer magazines and have no inkling of any computer game unless they see it on a shelf.

Regarding the Diplomatic Chits, one problem that doesn't seem to have been covered is suppose one of the actions bringing Turkey, Sweden or Spain into the war prevents Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria from entering the Axis? If that aspect was covered I must have read through it.

[jon_j_rambo]

ChakaKhan --- I've got a sales background so that's why I'm presistant. Complaining does work, examples:

1) In college, the students who bitch/cry/moan/complain about the way their test was graded get points added to their test scores.

2) After patch 1.06, everybody told me to shut-up, Hubert was done. Really, I think they call in 1.07 now. Maybe Hubert will make 1.08. Has he (Hubert) every said it will NEVER happen?

3) When little kids keep asking OVER & OVER & OVER again for a toy or candy, it's helps their odds. It's worth a scolding just for the chance of a prize.

4) In sales, you get rejected all day, until the line of defense is broken.

5) With women, who gets the prize? Those who stay with the plan

Yeah, I am a bitcher, because I want something.

Back to your proposals. What the hell (heaven) is Sweden & Turkey part of the "DiploChipCard"? I don't get it. Spain is the bottom line. I was complaining about Axis taking Spain in 2-turns six-months ago.

I guarantee holes will be found in your rules. The best thing for balance is the bid system. Remember, when people didn't even want that?

Legend addressing ChakaKhan.

[ August 23, 2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Jersey John

... that many, if not most, of the potential customers are unaware that this game exists. ... it's amazing how many of them shrug and say they don't do things through the Internet. It's also amazing how many of them don't read computer magazines and have no inkling of any computer game unless they see it on a shelf.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being in a "niche". Unless its a Xbox or GameBoy or whatever the latest is these days, a wargame will never see a retail shelf in our lifetime. Marketing costs can never be recouped in the product life cycle. I'm not even sure if the money spent on advertising in computer magazines is worth it anymore.

... one problem that doesn't seem to have been covered is suppose one of the actions bringing Turkey, Sweden or Spain into the war prevents Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria from entering the Axis?

You're correct, DiploChits don't fix this. If we could fix that problem, then we wouldn't need DiploChits. Remember how when the Dutch Gambit first came out, some people started saying it should be outlawed because it wasn't historical? Eventually we agreed that it was a possibility, but one that wouldn't have been done lightly, because breaking treaties doesn't make your other allies feel very comfortable. DiploChits is an attempt to provide that diplomatic penalty.

Example... Allies decide to do a Dutch Gambit. Axis still have to do thier normal defense and so on. They will lose the plunder. But they have now gained a extra DiploChit (Allies have 1, Axis have 2). Remember we talked about having some way of influencing the neutrals? This is a simplified way. Because now, the Axis are free to invade Sweden and be no worse off than before because of the actions of the Allies in the Low Countries. Assume after France falls, take Norway then Axis ready to take Sweden. Axis tells Allies wants to DoW Sweden. Allies say no, each one burning a DiploChit. Next turn, Axis uses his DiploChit to DoW Sweden.

Assume we follow a more "historical" approach. Poland, then Low Countries, then France. Now the Axis "happy times". Normally Norway, Minors join, then sometime Greece. DiploChits everyone has the same, and the historical invasions are done. During this process, any attempt to hit Ireland or Vichy or Portugal or Spain or Sweden has a political consequence. Not to mention Switzerland.

[Shaka of Carthage]

ramboette

Sales background, hmmm.

I understand your point about complaining. I don't agree with you, but its a matter of style. If it works for you, do it. Just consider yourself "scolded" from me.

5) With women, who gets the prize? Those who stay with the plan.

See 3), since sometimes you get the candy just to shut you up. I prefer to be given the candy store and told to have whatever I want.

This isn't about the Spanish Gambit. Its because Germany had very good reasons not to invade Spain, that SC doesn't represent. But its also because by Spain joining (either thru Sealion or invasion), you've just lost the Axis minors. That makes no sense. Same with Sweden. The economic benefits of Germany invading Sweden are just too good to pass up. A few of us attempted to solve that by manipulating the hexes, but we can't do that anymore. Having Sweden as a full fledged Axis member isn't right either. Same reasoning behind Turkey.

And by putting DiploChip penalties on certain Gambits (like Dutch or even Rome), you can still allow the Gambit but you have a way to counter it (ie Rome Gambit, Italy falls, but Turkey joins Axis).

You've played boardgames before, so you know as well as I, that there are no perfect rules. Its kinda like the law. As long as you act in the spirit of the rule, you can solve any misunderstanding.

The best thing for balance is the bid system. Remember, when people didn't even want that?

Yes I do. The bid isn't a balancing system, its a handicap system. And the handicap is based on the perception of the relative strengths. Golf is a balanced game is it not? So is SC. But you take a newbie against a golf pro, is the game itself not balanced? Its the same with SC. Why do you think the League has a "normal" bid, a 1:4, a 1:8, etc? Those are not attempts to balance, those are attempts to give replayability so people won't be bored.

I prefer replayability by having different strategic options available to me and having to plan or react to what my opponent does. Plain vanilla SC isn't that way.

[Desert Dave]

I hope I shall not be scolded, or otherwise stigmatized or slyly indicted for this... but,

This diplomacy chit model seems too complicated... and distracting to keep track of... I can easily see some wily foe saying...

NO! no, you don't have the 2 chits, you only have the one, I'm absolutely certain! of it.

Better to wait for SC2, IMHO... I am guessing that Hubert will have some different Diplomacy model, that will "correct" some of these disuputed DoW and a-historical gambits.

***BTW, Shaka, your brain chemistry is changed... even, by eating a candy bar. Or, through meditation, as the Gurus and Fakirs would attest.

Everything, as per usual... depends on what kind of "candy" you like... or, for a million million (...inaccessible to the One who stands with hands on hips, quite privately righteous) reasons, momentarily need ... yes?

[Jollyguy]

I would also be against diplomatic chits in SC 1, too unworkable. IMO, except for the Russian front, SC is basically balanced. If you take something away from one side you must compensate the other side at almost a 1:1 ratio.

Yea, the Germans run roughshod the first couple years...just like they did in real life. But a decent bid to Russia compensates for this. Against a skilled Allied opponent, the Axis needs all those mpps to defend their vast empire. You take away Spain, or another large minor, and the Axis is at a distinct disadvantage. If Spain or Sweden is denied, would the Allies be willing to disband two carriers and not buy replacements, or be forbidden to buy HQs, or evacuate Egypt, or DOW a minor with no intention of invading to set back readiness? Probably not.

One thing we've learned with SC is that a "fix" can have unintended effects somewhere else. Hubert was wise to offer patches reluctantly, and only after extensive play testing and comments by all of us.

If certain players want mods or house rules or unit limits, that's fine for social play. But for Z league or pbem tournement play, IMO use the KISS philosophy. Keep it simple stupid. With SC that's done through bids. The reason the bid is 1:6 or 1:8 or 1:10 now is because the "marketplace" has determined that to be a fair amount of mpps to balance the Axis bias. Too many house rules clutter up gameplay and channel results toward much more limited outcomes. Basically, house rules and unit limits restrict probably the best aspect of the game, which is the almost endless differences in gameplay that result from humans doing unintended (and sometimes stupid) things. Kinda of like Newton's law of physics (the third?), that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Too many house rules limit action/reaction possibilities.

A year after its realease, I'm only convinced that two house rules are absoulutely required: 1) No amphibious landings on a major on DOW 2) No Rome Gambit.

Other than that, SC works fine as designed after adjustment with bids.

Bob

[Shaka of Carthage]

Immer Etwas

I'd suspect that my brain chemistry has been altered by the effect of reading this forum over the past year or so.

Jollyguy

You bring up a good point. If you can't see why there is a problem with the Allies doing a Dutch Gambit or the Axis invading Spain, then the DiploChit concept isn't required.

[Jollyguy]

Shaka;

From an ahistorical perspective, I agree, invading the LCs or Spain runs against the grain. Same with the Axis invading Sweden and Iraq. But from the perspective of the game, and strictly looking at it within the playability of SC 1, doingany of these results in adequate repurcussions and benefits to each side, which within the entire balancing act of the game, balances out.

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Thanks for the detailed response, it's making more sense to me now. My basic first impression was that it is a good idea but a bit awkward in actual use, like all house rules.

Similarly to the bidding system I believe the idea is viable but the diplochitsmight might need to be weighted to one side or the other.

A good idea for the interim till we see what Hubert comes up with in the way of Diplomacy.

Marketing wise you're probably correct, the added expense of putting the game on shelves might well offset it's added sales. The guys I'm talking about don't even want to play against other humans, they want a good AI that they can play against for a while, save, and pick up again later on.

If the way to reach them is going through some bunch of hacks like they've got at Hasbro, where glitz gets ten times the emphasis over substance, then I'd prefer leaving those poor guys staring at shelves.

Immer

Interesting and Shaka's response about prolonged exposure to this Forum altering brain chemistry is also interesting. I agree that Hubert will no doubt put a Diplomatic aspect into SC2, but also agree with Shaka that an interim idea would be good. We have the same first impression about the awkwardness of applying this sort of idea. What gets me about most of the house rules is, in order to use them properly, we have to keep a pad and pencil by our side while playing. Didn't we all believe computers would make those things all but obsolete!

JollyGuy

True, the game has a set balance. I'm not that sure many of it's aspects are best with the present settings but agreed that it can't just be lightly tampered with.

[Kuniworth]

For the last time

What we need aint another patch, there will always be complaining on new patches

What we need aint new houserules

What we certainly not need is Rambo as a moderator

WHAT WE NEED IS AN EDITOR SO WE CAN FIX THINGS OURSELF, AND MAKE SC-COMMUNITY LIVE ON

END OF DISCUSSION

[ August 23, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

What we certainly not need is Rambo as a moderator

I can't agree, Mr. Rambo is always so kind and polite against everyone...

---

I don't want a new patch. 7 patches are enough.

Now is the time to build a new, bigger & improved game about WW2. I would favor the same scenario, with improved options and a bigger map.

And if possible a lot more informations from Mr. Carter about the actual status. Come on, Hubert, we need more news, we are starving here.

-

tum-de-dum-di-dum:

Hubert Carter, why don't you write us, we're out in the jungle and huuuung - ry to hear youuu.

Send us a card, we're waiting so hard for a new -hew -hew gaaaame ...

[ August 23, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[pzgndr]

The reason the bid is 1:6 or 1:8 or 1:10 now is because the "marketplace" has determined that to be a fair amount of mpps to balance the Axis bias.

Just curious, but is the group concensus that Axis does have a bias and a 1:8 bid represents a "fair" balance? A couple of suggestions:

- Mod the default 1939 scenario or the 1939 Campaign mod to be an official Tournament scenario, perhaps with only the 2 house rules JollyGuy proposed, and let the chips fall where they may.

- Consider the 1940 scenario as an alternative starting point for competition. None of the "offending" gambits are viable, UK starts with 2 carriers and not 3, and research for both sides is delayed a bit. Most major strategic options for WWII remain playable, and both sides have a relatively equal challenge to win.