Strategic Level Gaming

[Gavrok]

Hope this isn't too off topic....but SC really hits the nail on the head with a great balance between playability and complexity. I always view the suggestions re SC2/ new patches with a little trepidation as I dont want SC2 to go down the 'detailed' operational route...eg. parachute divisions. There are a few enhancements such as ; Russian winter, fighter/tank balance/ amphibious range restrictions close to owned ports, and time lags in building units.....but I always temper these wish lists in line with the current playability of the existing game.

Getting back on the subject however I just found an old Avalon Hill game called Russian Campaign which similarly gets the balance spot on, a bit like 'The North and the South' american civil war board game.

I wonder if there are any other games of this nature out there for the humble pc that fellow sc devotees would willingly recommend........at least until SC2 comes out. I'm thinking of the same ilk as those listed above.....with strategy, playability, and not at-all time-consuming as part of the recipe. I'm sure this is the game type that would appeal to myself......those old wargamers who no longer have the time or brain-power to deal with every last detail.

Look forward to any suggestions

Gavrok

[KDG]

You hit it right on the nose with the time and brain power comments.

Having a 1 1/2 year old daughter, a new puppy, the wife working from home at odd hours on the computer, SC is the perfect game to play. Good strategy, but not so detailed that changing a quick diaper or telling the dog to quit chewing on the rug ruins your complete concentration. With the ability to do a turn in about 10 minutes, this allows me to play 4 or 5 PBEM games at once, with one turn a day.

You were also right on with the comments on changes. More balance between units, a better editor, more randomness in each game, as well as enhancements, while keeping the time factor to what it is now is very important.

I'd love to see a civil war game based off this system(supply, generals, capitols, corps and cavalry, some states entering the war at later times, etc) would be great.

[ June 24, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: KDG ]

[Edwin P.]

I stongly agree, SC is a highly playable game and I like the idea for a Civil War Game based on the same game engine (infantry, artillery, cavalry, ironclads, etc).

Perhaps a game covering the Age of Rome, if it accounted for the differences in units & tactics employed by Roman Legions, Egyptian Chariots, Greek Phalanxes, etc. It reminds me of an old SPI game called the Punic Wars. A boardgame similar to SC it was most interesting, simple and covered the area from Spain to Syria.

For me SC is well balanced. The major changes I would like to see are enhancements to the AI, improved FOW, additional tech / investment choices and as KDG said more randomness. Basically, changes that would not detract from the playability of the game.

[ June 24, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[pzgndr]

WinWar II 4.0 was recently released and looks very interesting. Sort of like HOI-lite with a worldwide scope. I saw this once before when it was 2.0 or 3.0 and wasn't impressed.

I've been "busy" with the Strategy Guide for the past several weeks and haven't had time to check it out.

[ June 25, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Bill Macon ]

[Edwin P.]

Thanks for the Link Bill,

I just downloaded it and SC looks/plays much better but this game has two interesting features;

1> AI Script Writer so that players can write their own AI scripts

2> Weather Effects Appear on Map, ie in some areas you see it raining.

[KDG]

I noticed that the game is real time as well. I did see that their are random events, which is a nice addition.

[CC Baxter]

Uncommon Valour is great (notwithstanding the enormous amount of patches). Although perhaps not truly "grand strategy", as is it concerned with the campaign in the south-west Pacific in WWII, the game does give you the chance to play around with carriers, battleships, land-based airfleets, marine divisions and myriad other units.

If your domestic arrangements get in the way there is always the "save game" option!

[jon_j_rambo]

Right on guys!

1) U.S. Civil war game designed like SC would be awesome! I played the board-hex version as a kid over 100+ times "Civil War" by Victory games (I think)?

2) Something Rome Era would be cool. How 4-players? How about 2-players with 2 A.I. players? Rome, Egypt, The Huns, Turks, whoever.

3) Is the Uncommon Valor Pacific the same as "War in the Pacific"? I thought "War in the Pacific" hasn't been released?

On the same wave length,

Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas

[ June 24, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Panzer39]

I would like to see a Civil war game made out of this engine as well.

[SpitfireMarkX]

Or one large game where you can do World war 1 and 2, Maybe civil and war of 1812 on it, one big game, cost like 50 US.

[AndrewT]

> Is the Uncommon Valor Pacific the same as "War in the Pacific"?

Same idea, but it's only on a restricted region, around the Solomon Is/New Guinea area.

[SeaMonkey]

Rambo, UV v.2.30 (currently out of stock) is out now through Matrix, while WitP is in development. Both based on the same game engine. These games are by 2by3 led by Gary Grigsby. This group is responsible for many of the SPI games of our past. If anyone can build a true Pacific WW2 simulation its these guys.

[Gavrok]

Good to see a few suggestions out there. Thought Uncommon Valour was a complex game though.

I'm really looking for a Russian campaign (as in the AH board wargame)type game, or American civil war (was it called 'The North and South'...or 'The Blue and the Grey' for that easy board war game that had boxes for areas throughout USA), or even Napoleonic game.

All these slightly steps up from the beer and pretzels type game....but doesn't have 100+unit types, and a 250 page rule book.

Playable in 4-10hrs with the SC level of detail...any further suggestions welcome......or how do we hassle developers?

Gavrok (too old and busy to devote life solely to working out games now.......unfortunately...or fortunately according to the missus)

[jon_j_rambo]

This game is the Real Deal.

Hubert, convert this hex box game to TCP/IP

Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas

[ June 25, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

This game is the Real Deal.

That was a nice game. I loved the maps as they were absolutely huge. The game played fairly well and was not overly complicated to learn.

It would be nice to see some of the classic tabletop games adapted for the PC.

I of course am still holding out for TSR/SPI's World War Two ETO Revised to be put out on PC. That and Guns of August by Avalon Hill were the only two board games I kept. The rest went to ebay years ago.

I only regret not keeping Fortress Europa and my First Edition Battle of the Bulge. Ok, maybe my 4 copies of Squad Leader (4 COI, 3 COD and 2 GI and all the expansion scenarios and boards). Well maybe my many copies of Panzerblitz.

Oh dammit, ok so I regret selling most all of them, except my AH Gettysburg.

I wonder what type of agreement one would have to come to with these companies that no longer make these games? It would be nice to see them out for the PC.

[KDG]

Gavrok

Here is a free download of American Civil War.

http://www.adanaccommandstudies.com/IntroACW.html

The zip file is acw28.zip(this has been updated frequently).

There is a tutorial, as well as a PDF for instructions.

Each turn is 10 days.

(SC game engine with 2 week turns covering the American Civil war, yes, that would be great).

http://www.adanaccommandstudies.com/IntroACW.html

[Gavrok]

Rambo

I remember that Civil War game.....didnt it have all the generals that could be placed with each army etc.....got totally smashed at it as a) unlucky..... played against a better opponent......c) he was into that period of history and I wasn't (UK based).....well maybe (a) is false.

At the time I didnt like the General ratings though as it pretty much decided the contest. Would love to have the time to try it again....or see it on pc.......although my defintion of simple is a bit different from yours!

Anyone got any pc suggestions for the Russian Camapaign classic.

Gavrok

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Gavrok,

I had the russian campaign game by Avalon Hill. It was a fairly simplistic game. Fast and easy to learn. Quick to play.

I have seen nothing like that for the PC except for COS and SC.

When I wanna fight the russian front only, I play my well worn copy of War in Russia. Truly a fun game. That would be nice to see in updated form someday.

[CC Baxter]

Just to back up what Andrew T and SeaMonkey posted, Uncommon Valour is based around the south west Pacific (west coast of Australia, New Guinea, NE to Truk). The game is complex (more so than SC) but the level of detail is so much greater than SC and the rewards are commensurate. All in all the interface is pretty intuitive and the game is a real pleasure to play, once you get the hang of it.

There is available from Matrix Games the original version of War In The Pacific for download free of charge (it has been improved by a dedicated bunch of enthusiasts) but this is, I stress, the original version and as such is very user-unfriendly. I downloaded it but didn't get very far with it. Uncommon Valour is however an altogether different proposition. Whilst still being a "Gary Grigsby design" the whole experience is radically different from the original War In The Pacific, a totally updated version of which will be released using the Uncommon Valour engine at some point in the future. For more information check the forums at Matrix games.

As a side-bar, I am interested in ANY grand strategy games available for the PC, regardless of historical era and geographical location.

Bring 'em on!

[jon_j_rambo]

Gavrok --- Yes, Civil War had "Army" counters. Army of the North Virginia, Army of the West, Army of the Cumberland, etc. Each Army would have one Commander to determine it's movement point requirement, reaction ability, & re-roll capability. An Army could also host as many other Leaders as you wanted. Those Leaders would modify your dice rolls.

Who was going to win a battle was very deterministic, not much luck at all.

The key was when to fight, where to fight, etc. It depended on how many "Action Points" you had left in the turn. Armies that were demoralized & attacked were in real trouble. Supply was VERY criticial, as it should be.

The luck in the game was not in the combat, it was how long a turn would last based on dice rolls for the use of action points. Tied dice rolls added length to the turn.

It sounds like "War In the Pacific" might be worth playing when available.

Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas

[ June 25, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[CC Baxter]

EDIT: East not west coast of Australia. :eek:

[pzgndr]

KvK, check out Russo-German War by Schwerpunkt. RGW provides an excellent operational level simulation on the Russian Front, but it has been going through some serious growing pains since it was released. A v1.7 patch should be coming out shortly which should resolve most of the outstanding issues. Like Hubert with SC, Ron Dockal is a one-man programming shop so it takes a lot of time to work things out.

Btw, one reason RGW work has been held up for the past six months is because Ron has been working on a sequel, Anglo-German War to cover the rest of the European theater. One-week turns, division-size units with regimental/brigade breakdown, 7.5 mile hexes, and all of the operational complexity RGW offers. AGW might get released later this year. Someday, the two games should eventually merge into a single game, at least that's the plan. :cool:

Watching the development of both SC and RGW over the past 12-18 months, I've noted two things:

1) One-man programming shops can only do so much so we have to be very very patient. But it's worth the wait. Just read through the SC Version Changes file to get an appreciation for how much this game has improved over the past year.

2) Seeing the complexity at the operational level and the RGW debates about realism and accuracy and such at that level has convinced me we really should not go down that path with SC2. SC is great because it offers simplicity, and the abstractions generally work OK at the strategic level. We just need to be very cautious about introducing too much complexity and creating more problems than we think we're solving.

[J P Wagner]

I'm looking forward to TRENCH, a WWI strategic level game that is being produced by adanac...like Hubert and Ron, this game is also being developed by a one man operation so it may take a while..but I'll wait.

[ June 25, 2003, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Thanks Bill,

I checked it out and it looks very interesting. I like the scale. 10 miles per hex, regimental/battalion/division.

Don't like that it ends in October of 1944. That leaves out the fun sacking of Germany part. We russians live for that. LOL

However it appears totally unlike Avalon Hill's Russian Campaign. AH RC was corps/army level. Air power in that game was awful. Germans got 3 air support "stukas" at the start in 1941. Then 2 in 1942 and 1 in 1943. Nothing beyond 1943. Russians got nothing and liked it.

This game does look more complex, and we people that love to micromanage the front will probably enjoy that.

One thing I loved about War in Russia was being able to control the production and unit tank composition. For instance getting rid of the panzer II's. Changing Panzer IV production over to Panthers when they became available. And of course when the ME-262 arrived, switching over all German fighter production to those.

Then there was managing each corps unit composition. What divisions/regiments/battalions made up what corps. Stacking shock armies with 4 Tank Corps and 4 Mech Corps and rolling right over the german units.

Only thing I really disliked was the AI. It would work like the dickens to bust a hole in your line and then race panzer corps/tank armies through. Well and good, but it wouldn't move any units to keep the hole open. So you sealed it off and beat on the unsupplied tanks until they died. That depended on if they could supply them by air or not. And of course a good commander will make sure they can't resupply by air. Once destroyed the AI would have to rebuild these units and try the same tactic.

One board game that I would like to see PC adapted was TSR/SPI's Barbarossa. This was an interesting game which used a base corp formation and then you assigned strength points to each corps. For instance you had 3 corps and had to divide 20 points between them. It made for interesting play when you try to decide to have one or two strong corps and the rest weak. Or all moderately even sized corps. But the air point system in that game was also weak.

Oh well enough of my ramblings down memory lane. Those games are gone, time to move on. LOL

[pzgndr]

Don't like that it ends in October of 1944. That leaves out the fun sacking of Germany part.

That's because the map doesn't extend far enough west into Poland, Hungary and Germany to play out the final battles!

The AGW map will extend east far enough to include the original Polish borders, so we'll be able to fight the 1939 battles as well as the final 1944-45 battles into Germany. :cool: