Condor's Scandinavian Blitz

[Codename Condor]

I've developed a new strategy. A very powerful openning for axis,CSB, that imoproves my previous scandinavian strategy.

Poland is conquered in turn 2

Norway is conquered in turn 3

Denmark in turn 3/4

LC in turn 4/5 (if allies dont DOW LC)

Sweden in turn 5/6

After taking all scandinavian in such short time the axis income is huge and can afford Manstein plus 5/6 AFs and some chits in tech. After that i can easily break any allies LC gambit or a passive allies strategy. As hellraiser can tell, with a passive strategy, thats it, non LC gambit, DOW on Ireland and buying a swarm of corps, axis can take France in August40 with no losses and with 3 stars units. The advantage of CSB is obvious.

[zappsweden]

This strategy is very similar to my initial ZCC where Axis went for Norway instead of LC. However, in my games Allies would foresee I am loading up with transports and send navy to Norway coast.

If Norway turn 3 could not be stopped by Allies, ZCC and CSB would be KILLER strategies but my conclusion is that Allies can delay Norway at leist until turn 6-7. That is why my ZCC has now evolved into going for Sweden first (landing turn 5 in Sweden) and instead use the 3 AF for air support in Poland, LC and later on to stall Allied western counters.

[ September 01, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[jon_j_rambo]

yeah, yeah...you guys tried this crap on Legend & failed. Back to the drawing board kids.

[hellraiser]

condor, i play tested this opening. The best for allies is to scrap the bomber, buy 2 jet chits, dow LC turn 2, occupy it with uk corps and buy another 2 jet chits with the plunder. In turn 3, uk has 4 jet chits ... As I was telling you (and zapp) - any later thrust into france may turn the game into a tech gamble.

Zapp, ZCC needs Spain - depending on Romania's influence on russia's readiness, i would preffer to go 'all or nothing', dowing Bulgaria and Greece and Spain and pushing Russia into the 65-70 (if Romania was low) or if Romania was high, don't dow greece/bulgaria.

I playtested the HCC (ROTFLMAO) combining Condor's turn 3 skando assraping + Zapp's RACC (Ridiculous Attempt of Cookie Cutter ) + my little tweak and ended up with a kickass army pre barbarossa: 7 lvl 2 tanks, 8 lvl 1 armies, 7 lvl 4 AFs, 5 HQs, some corps. Barbarossa was a breeze - Riga fell during the opening move (i.e. HRS1 - hellraiser's riga snatching turn 1 ), all armies killed or encircled, 2 tanks and 1 AF killed.

I missed Vichy though, so no springboard for an invasion of Iraq the same turn with russia.

No IT at all, no chit sunk in that.

Meanwhile there were some buff western allies waiting to get ashore - allies saved 2 fr hqs, 2 fr armies, fr tank and uk had lvl 5 jets and lvl 3 LR.

As I was saying, any late thrust into france may turn into a tech race - if allies suspect a ZCC, Condor skando move or the almighty HCC , they will invest asap in jets. Now, if they get jets fast things can go ugly fast. If they get jets later, they will back off, buy 8-9 jets/lr chits and save A LOT of french heavy pieces. You cannot imagine how powerful the D-Day will be, having US HQ+troops AND fr HQ + troops.

The good part is, Russia will most likely be a joke - axis will probably have a huge tech edge. But most probably axis will not have the resources to fight in west as well, not even with cheap units (i.e. TCS - terif's corps spamming) so, in 1/5/30, allies will most probably win.

The best option for axis is to try to knock out uk, otherwise even with mega techs it's very difficult to win.

Now the HRS1 ... or is it HRG1 ? hellraiser's riga gangbang turn 1?

This attack WILL become standard, take heed to my words!!!

Prerequisites: LR 1, some jets. In fact the beter techs the more probable to succeed. HT helps as well.

Always attack the southern flank first!!! If things go bad (sucky rolls) and you are forced to use more air to kill/cut off stuff in the south, stick to the old plan.

If the rolls are decent (or you placed the right experienced troops in the right spots) you can attempt either a Riga capture during turn 1 barby or a Minsk capture turn 1.

IMHO Riga is better because it makes it virtually impossible for Russians to attack Finland early and denies them a formidable defense line. IMHO, even if an air or a tank escapes, the Riga attack pays off hugely. You can hunt down russian troops in the open, you can reach leningrad fast, Minsk will fall A LOT faster than usual and basically you can achieve the leningrad-smolensk-kharkow-rostov line much faster so you can operate west and wipe out the w-allies.

How it is done: red army near koenigsberg has to be killed (easy task), tank near koenigsberg hits Riga corps followed by massive air strikes (usually you need 3-5 air strikes depending on the jet tech and experience of the LFs)+cruiser attack if necessary. Corps just north of K-berg (on the river) moves into Riga. Second turn, operate some air near Riga (after wiping out any encircled red stuff in the area) to scout for a possible red buildup against Finland.

[hellraiser]

Now, the true pain is the french overkill defense Condor used on me. I have to admit I do not have yet a 100% bullet proof answer to this crap. Even with turn 2 minors

It is so roll dependant that axis may soon be in no position to use the air.

It is basically a non Fr HQ defence combined with a simple uk air strategy. The nasty thing is using the carriers from london port which can inflict huge damage (up to 5 str points) to LFs.

The main ideea is to kill the german corps near the landing site and occupy that spot with a fr corps and using air from london and carriers from port to force intercepts. FAF is used during the first 2 turns to force intercepts and then is opped to malta. The axis cash goes bye bye in a matter of 3-4 turns if the allies have decent to good rolls. I could break this in a hotseat, Rambo cracked my fr defence line in the end (but with what costs - he lost 3 LFs and some ground troops, I lost a carrier and a RAF - but not to air battles) - but this happens only if allies overuse air/ground or axis have good odds.

RAF, carriers scoring 5 damage? This is a joke guys! Axis simply don't have the cash for this sh!t. Or maybe am I missing something?

Any inputs?

[hellraiser]

We all know that an early uk air strategy is easy to beat once axis get the initiative in the air war. I.e. striking first and forcing RAF to reinforce instead of forcing intercepts from the buggy london area. But the use of carriers nullify this, because: RAF hits first, next turn LF refits, next turn RAF refits but pesky carrier hit from london port damaging again things.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

We all know that an early uk air strategy is easy to beat once axis get the initiative in the air war. I.e. striking first and forcing RAF to reinforce instead of forcing intercepts from the buggy london area. But the use of carriers nullify this, because: RAF hits first, next turn LF refits, next turn RAF refits but pesky carrier hit from london port damaging again things.

Ehum, ZAS proofs superior once again?

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

The best for allies is to scrap the bomber, buy 2 jet chits, dow LC turn 2, occupy it with uk corps and buy another 2 jet chits with the plunder. In turn 3, uk has 4 jet chits ... As I was telling you (and zapp) - any later thrust into france may turn the game into a tech gamble.

You forgot to mention that Allies can and SHOULD send their navy towards Norway to prevent turn 3 invasion. NO way Axis gets Norway turn 3 if Allies use RAI for instance.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

I missed Vichy though, so no springboard for an invasion of Iraq the same turn with russia.

Iraq can be taken turn 1 anyway!

Place HQ+corps+3 tanks+2 air in Eastern Egypt and take Iraq in a single blow.

This enables Axis to keep USA out of the war for very long. USA with 180 MPP and a starting effect of their handicap plus units is a well compensation enough to postpone the neutral conquerings.

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by zappsweden:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hellraiser:

The best for allies is to scrap the bomber, buy 2 jet chits, dow LC turn 2, occupy it with uk corps and buy another 2 jet chits with the plunder. In turn 3, uk has 4 jet chits ... As I was telling you (and zapp) - any later thrust into france may turn the game into a tech gamble.

You forgot to mention that Allies can and SHOULD send their navy towards Norway to prevent turn 3 invasion. NO way Axis gets Norway turn 3 if Allies use RAI for instance. </font>

[Codename Condor]

I admit what hellraiser says about tech. If allies has luck in tech things could go wrong. But, axis can afford to buy 3/4 chits very soon (by turn 5/6), in my games i even buy a chit in tanks to cacht up with france , so i dont think allies can take huge advantage here. If both of em goes to jets level 2 for instance in turn 7/8 then its better for axis. Axis has MMPs to reinforce and carriers would be useless. If things goes very bad for axis, thats it, 2 levels of disanvantage in air, then axis should stop trying to break thru LC and attack Hungary and romania till the cacht up. Italy woulda joined also so another pain in the ass for allies.

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

Now, the true pain is the french overkill defense Condor used on me. I have to admit I do not have yet a 100% bullet proof answer to this crap. Even with turn 2 minors

It is so roll dependant that axis may soon be in no position to use the air.

It is basically a non Fr HQ defence combined with a simple uk air strategy. The nasty thing is using the carriers from london port which can inflict huge damage (up to 5 str points) to LFs.

The main ideea is to kill the german corps near the landing site and occupy that spot with a fr corps and using air from london and carriers from port to force intercepts. FAF is used during the first 2 turns to force intercepts and then is opped to malta. The axis cash goes bye bye in a matter of 3-4 turns if the allies have decent to good rolls. I could break this in a hotseat, Rambo cracked my fr defence line in the end (but with what costs - he lost 3 LFs and some ground troops, I lost a carrier and a RAF - but not to air battles) - but this happens only if allies overuse air/ground or axis have good odds.

RAF, carriers scoring 5 damage? This is a joke guys! Axis simply don't have the cash for this sh!t. Or maybe am I missing something?

Any inputs?

Ive won so many games with this strategy...Yesterday, i DOWed Ireland and won the games latter with my 2 stars carriers (after my RAF had weaken axis air for some turns). Today, i dont DOWed Ireland so i win the games faster lol. Tomorrow, i will win games just after stablising connection! Poland can kick some ass! ehh Hellraiser?? rofl.

Back to the issue, Hellraiser, the key for axis is to spend money wise!. I see games when im using aggro moves and axis spends MMPs for Manstein! in many games i see axis with 3 HQs and a few troops. Manstein is overvalorated!! With this people out there using aggro moves i dont buy Manstein and send em to hell

The way u reinforce your AF is most important. U have to take some time to see what u need. If u buy more AFs u can attack isntead of defensea and this is better cos it negates allies AA bonus. And remember, those carriers goes wrech in the first/second attack and allies cant afford to reinforce both carriers and AFs so in my games I rarely use the carriers more than twice.

[ September 01, 2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Codename Condor ]

[hellraiser]

Yup, carrier won't likely hit more than twice.

It is not about the power of this strategy, because as any early air strategy, it revolves around the AA bug. The bug can simply wreck the axis air - if raf/carriers manage to hit 2-3 times max damage, it is almost over.

In our games, i always bought 5th air instead of Manny - hey, i ain't no rookie, ya know - i know what has to be done to breakthru France. The problem was your carriers/RAF constantly hitting for 4-5 damage which simply is too much for my 170 mpps or so. I don't want to mention your uber ground rolls - tanks and armies dying like flies, killed by non hq-ed french armies and whatnot.

Not having the 3rd HQ makes it a bit difficult to maintain the speed of the advance. But this is ok, this should be offset by UK mpp losses due to the constant air battles.

I did not say it is bullet proof - axis CAN get France in a very reasonable time frame if they get decent rolls and of course don't f*ck up the HQ support. But this is the problem - rolls I mean this game shouldn't be won/lost cuz of stinkin' rolls - maybe a zero bid for uk and giving more cash to USA (maybe double or more) would make the game less dependant on rolls and more dependant on tactics/strategies.

Now, the constant air battles even if it not kills off axis air, it will greatly reduce their str points thus lowering the odds vs ground troops - i mean a zero xp 10 str AF will score 2 against a ground unit in the open but once its str goes lower than 7, it will score only 1. So there should be no surprise that after applying the +1/-1 rule, your AF score in fact 0

But this is ok, it is not an exploit and in fact it is a strength of the early air strategy.

Comparing Condor's turn 3 norway attack and ZCC, condor's ideea is better because it leaves a lot less time to the allies to prepare/get techs than ZCC. Even if allies get 4 jet chits by turn 3, they still need some time to buy the monty HQ. Thus axis have time to redeploy stuff against France and maybe make a full turn of air strikes before RAF can be engaged. And, to succesfully defend with air, allies need 2 jet advances ahead axis. The sheer number of Axis' AFs will prevail if there is only 1 tech level difference.

MPP wise, condor's ideea is very good - what if you get france in september, let's say? In a normal game, you get skando after france, sometimes sweden taking up to december 40 or even jan 41 to capture.

The only flaw here - allies' 4 chits producing several jet advances fast - which is not necessarily uncommon. If that happens, axis lose.

[hellraiser]

'You forgot to mention that Allies can and SHOULD send their navy towards Norway to prevent turn 3 invasion. NO way Axis gets Norway turn 3 if Allies use RAI for instance. '

Yes they do it. Allies send 3 BBs and possibly 1 carrier towards Baltic sea but condor moves an AF in denmark during turn 1 and the sub towards norway in turn 1 as well - axis will have the first strike - 2 cruisers, 1 sub, 1 air against the 3 BBs/carrier and will have a second AF in denmark by turn 3. It can delay the invasion but with high costs.

It may be better because it buys allies the required time to buy stuff/monty HQ and to have some tech lucky strikes.

[Kuniworth]

hey! stop beeing gay!

If axis go for scandinavia allies do the spanish gambit.

[zappsweden]

Hellraiser. Allies will use RAI. Corps sniffing coast turn one (near Denmark). Allied ships to Norway. French ships to Norway. Allies take LC turn 2. Hey, I been cracked myself using the ZCC against RAI.

Why would Condors Scando invasion be any faster than ZCC at taking Norway?

In my initial ZCC, preparing Norway right away (air to Denmark) was the first thing I tried to force but it simply could not be done without delay if Allies used their navy.

In my early ZCC strategy, I also moved air to Denmark turn one trying to speed up the invasion. Allies will sacrifice 2-3 BB and the 3 french ships.

I am not questioning whether Axis can win with the strategy, but I am questioning whether Axis will get Norway that early. Getting Norway and Sweden in 6 turns is not realistic other than if Allies play passive IMO.

- I WANT THE TRUTH!!

- You Can't handle the truth

(A Few Good Men)

[ September 02, 2005, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[hellraiser]

rai is irrelevant - corps sniffer is a joke - i will show you a certain units placement that renders the corps sniffer inneffective.

The only sound thing that can stop axis after they did the norway attack is jet tech (2 levels ahead).

Or you can go for the long route - corps dumping and aiming for the long game. Allies have enough mpps via 1/5/30 bid , to have a fair game later on.

The good part of condor's ideea is that LFs won't be forced to intercept early. If allies do the LC gambit, there are no more targets for RAF.

Regarding the allied fleet advancing towards norway turn 1. I will show you a good counter to that as well. The best they can do is sink 1-2 axis ships.

I playtested condor's new ideea and it works like a charm. It fails only if allies get jet tech by the time axis start the offensive into LC/France, or 1-2 turns after that.

At jet 2 vs jet 0, axis AFs cannot refit fast enough. Not even skando mpps can offset the jet tech difference. And carriers ARE effective against lvl 0 german AFs, even without any xp

[hellraiser]

the big difference between zcc and csb (lol) is that under zcc, axis have a thin defence line on the rhine and thus are in danger of losing the game to an aggro allied player. CSB users will keep a very strong force on the Rhine, consisting in 1-2 HQs, air, tanks, armies, corps. And they will not defend but try hard to get their troops near brussels/M-line to force italy in ASAP.

[zappsweden]

The Allied goal is to delay Scando, and they will.

[Kuniworth]

Allied goal is to be gay after the game. Maybe they will maybe they wont. Problem is some people like to get it in the ass and go gay by that. So you'll have to be careful of who you PLAY

so it's you who turn out GAY

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

CSB users will keep a very strong force on the Rhine, consisting in 1-2 HQs, air, tanks, armies, corps. And they will not defend but try hard to get their troops near brussels/M-line to force italy in ASAP.

So, how are they gonna use air support in LC when they already setting up their air for Norway invasion?

If Norway is delayed, Axis has minimal air support for crossing the Rhine and Italy gets delayed plus Allies entrench Brussels.

Show me CSB and I will show you DEATH :cool:

[ September 02, 2005, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

'You forgot to mention that Allies can and SHOULD send their navy towards Norway to prevent turn 3 invasion. NO way Axis gets Norway turn 3 if Allies use RAI for instance. '

Yes they do it. Allies send 3 BBs and possibly 1 carrier towards Baltic sea but condor moves an AF in denmark during turn 1 and the sub towards norway in turn 1 as well - axis will have the first strike - 2 cruisers, 1 sub, 1 air against the 3 BBs/carrier and will have a second AF in denmark by turn 3. It can delay the invasion but with high costs.

It may be better because it buys allies the required time to buy stuff/monty HQ and to have some tech lucky strikes.

errr well that was my early opennings. Of course, ive been improving teh openning and now i do move 2 AFs, i make the corps sniffering uless,...If allies moves teh carrier a bit close i can sink the carrier forgot about Norway and stick to LC lol lol .

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

the big difference between zcc and csb (lol) is that under zcc, axis have a thin defence line on the rhine and thus are in danger of losing the game to an aggro allied player. CSB users will keep a very strong force on the Rhine, consisting in 1-2 HQs, air, tanks, armies, corps. And they will not defend but try hard to get their troops near brussels/M-line to force italy in ASAP.

Yup, thats teh way it works. I have my air in Denmark for a short period of time, 2 AFs a couple of turns. By turn 4 i can have 4 AFs ready to hit LC, Manstein plus 1 more AF bought in Oslo to help kill Sweden fast and to avoid allies ships breaking in.

By turn 5 i have my feets in LC. RAF will be still no good to counter. At that time italy would prolly joined axis and after turn 6 with Sweden converted the MMP income would allow to buy more and more chits. After that as hellraiser says only 2 levels of disadvantage in jets can kill axis. If that happens axis would have to retreat and wait or attack Hungary and Romania for more MMPs.

[Codename Condor]

And remember, allies ships are way too far to avoid Norway capture. Only 3 BBs(+carrier) are in range and axis can have 2/3 AFs 1 sub + 2 cruisiers. Axis could lose 1 ship or even none. I will always have 2 armies + 1 corps in the Norway shore by turn 2! and that is a promise!. And i will always try to get 2 AFs in turn 2 to reach Oslo in turn 3 (sometimes i guess only 1 AF will make it) but even if i fail to conquer Oslo in turn 3 i will send reinforcements to take it in turn 4. And that is teh worst case scenario.

[zappsweden]

You are correct, Condor. Norway cannot be stopped.

[ September 02, 2005, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]