Mr. Clark Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Patgod: i've been invading russia in august of '40(see other thread). each time i do VERY well and drive deep. however each time the demo's time limit ends with me at the gates of moscow. each time i try something "a little different" to capture the city. most recently my plans were foiled by the AI building 8(yes, eight) corps right in the middle of my advance. that'll teach me to bypass citys. while i did knock out all of the corps, and take the town they were based around it delayed me by many weeks.Heh, that's kinda cool! I can't wait to play the AI in the full game... so plans can be made beyond the year, and effects will be felt later for things done right or wrong early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 MT, look, there's a difference between being imprecise and insulting people. You can't call someone a "lackey" out of the blue, and then expect him to not take it personally. I'd be willing to get to terms with you again, but you're making that difficult for me as long as you still claim that me and "several" other people "make excuses for why the game is not different" - still without providing even a single example where I have done so. (In fact, I'm even beginning to wonder whether you maybe simply confuse me with someone else.) The irony is that I even agree with your concerns . I,too, was worried that SC will maybe just fall short of classics like especially Clash of Steel. Or maybe that it would improve some things, while falling behind in others. I really want the game to be great, and that's the reason why, up until now, I raised many points of criticism myself. These ranged from the geographical location of rivers, national boundaries, and position of armies, over strategical and tacticalissues like the (initial) lack of submarine/MPP-convoy interaction or the missing of an assault option, to gameplay/interface issues like e.g. the way the movement/attack phase is handled. Hubert took many of the suggestions issued by others and me into account (in fact, more than we all ever dreamed of!), but at one time we all had to agree that if he says that something can't be changed because it is too deeply rooted in the frame of the original design decisions, or would not work because of technical limits, then we would let the matter rest and live with it. But offering criticism and suggestions, does not exclude standing in for the strengths of the game at the same time. E.g. I would not think it an improvement if the French setup in a corps/army-level game would include a tank corps for the reasons I stated. I honestly don't think that this makes me an apologist (not to mention the "l-word"). It's nothing but part of the everyday discussion which happen to take place on boards like this. Yes, I can't but confess that there are things I *will* sorely miss in SC, especially combined assaults and diplomacy. Everyone will have his own personal gripes, and I yet have to see the game which is perfect in every regard for me. Still, I will not end this post without at least hinting at why I *nevertheless* think that, all things considered, SC is indeed a big improvement over all the classics like SAE,Hicom, COS and 3R: - The most important point for me is that it has a much better AI than any of those oldies. Sure, like everyone else, I still want to have it tweaked in various regards, yet I'm impressed with how good it already is (btw. Hubert told us that the final version will be further improved). - Taking the experience points from PG is a great idea which I can't find in the other grand strategy games at all. - Unlike COS (my personal favorite in the genre until now), SC has the navy going on hexes (like hicom and 3r). - Unlike hicom, the production and resarch is clean and tidy (like in COS and 3R). - Unlike 3R, there are not 27 tedious "phases" to go through when issuing orders. - Unlike COS, the US and canada are actually on-map, instead of just being presented by units popping up in the UK. (Even if it is still abstracted, and taking the US has to be made more difficult, I really like the general idea.) There are many, many other things in addition to these, but you get the gist: while SC is *not* totally different in the sense that it is still a game of its kind, it manages to take many strong points of the oldies and successfully merges it into something which I do not hesitate to call "new" because the whole is always more than the sum of its parts. Straha [ May 29, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Straha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: SNIP ... the fact that SC can be quickly played in an evening. This means that unlike groggier games, I can actually play it with my wife. Hehe...if $25 is the price of domestic tranquility when it comes to gaming, then it's worth the price. See, and here we have something in common. Peace? Straha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Straha: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: SNIP ... the fact that SC can be quickly played in an evening. This means that unlike groggier games, I can actually play it with my wife. Hehe...if $25 is the price of domestic tranquility when it comes to gaming, then it's worth the price. See, and here we have something in common. Peace? Straha</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimlord Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 i agree here this game has so many great points that it far overshadows the small elements raised... this beta has been the best comp. generated wwii game that i have seen...i played advanced third reich and third reich since it first came out in board form (my dad raised me on it you might say) and sc is far more enjoyable than even that... sc offers a fun and mostly realistic view of wwii that is a joy to play...and that is just the beta version in one year...my hat is off to whomever made this game!!! any criticism should be constructive and not insulting...the designers of this game put forth im sure a vast amount of energy and time to create an enjoyable game that so far plays very well...the small issues that have cropped up do not in any way detract from the fun of the system and the skill that went behind making it there is no place in a forum like this to call someone a lackey because he or she enjoys the game and respects its creator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by grimlord: there is no place in a forum like this to call someone a lackey because he or she enjoys the game and respects its creator...If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimlord Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by grimlord: there is no place in a forum like this to call someone a lackey because he or she enjoys the game and respects its creator...If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 So how many MPPs does he get as plunder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimlord Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Straha: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. I give up. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by grimlord: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by grimlord: there is no place in a forum like this to call someone a lackey because he or she enjoys the game and respects its creator...If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by grimlord: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Straha: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. I give up. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: The thing is, I have been concentrating on the mechanics of the game, and have brought up several valid (as confirmed by other posters) issues. It's comments like this that brought out my use of the term "lackey": [qb] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />you still claim that me and "several" other people "make excuses for why the game is not different" - still without providing even a single example where I have done so. After posting a fairly lengthy discussion of one of my basic criticisms of the game, the first response is a claim that I haven't given a single example, despite the fact that I've done all but clobber him over the head with my example. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by grimlord: dude i didnt mean to jump your case...sorry... Huh? :confused: The "I give up" wasn't at all directed at you, grimlord. Sorry. Straha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Must be my imagination then. Lord know I have nothing better to do than debate an imaginary argument that never occured. And no, I didn't know full well that you were looking for examples of where I slighted you. I read it as a request for specifics regarding my criticism of the game. Apparently you never read this: Rather, I'm posing some questions that I and otherse obviously feel should be addressed. If I can play a strategic level WWII game that is several years old and offers more than SC, then something is wrong here. If you don't care to debate this point, Straha, then I'm done responding to you in this thread, as it's pointless. I've tried to get the discussion back on track, but you are apparently so insecure that you think I somehow have it out for you. I don't even know you, and you misread my initial post re: the lackey comment (it wasn't referring to you). Chill out and enjoy the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 OK guys interesting points all around, but I think that this thread has strayed far enough from the initial idea of 'First Impressions'. That said I'll lock this thread up Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 Originally posted by Straha: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by grimlord: dude i didnt mean to jump your case...sorry... Huh? :confused: The "I give up" wasn't at all directed at you, grimlord. Sorry. Straha</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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