I hate to say this, but I think I found a bug... A BIG bug...

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Napoleon1944:

Matt said last night that 1.12 is the final patch, so we will have to live with it.

Just a question.....

Is that the "official" last word on the matter of patches and updates to v1.12?

-tom w

[Guest Madmatt]

Read what Charles said earlier in this very thread.

Madmatt

[Guest Madmatt]

Let me add one point to this issue.

Currently Steve and Charles are working on some other stuff and won't be active on the forum until later this week but I have recently collected all my findings and test results and stated my opinions on this matter to the powers that be.

Charles (who is the ONLY person hat can make a decision to make patches) does not see enough of an issue in the game to make a new patch. Will that change? I can't say for sure but conducting tests in a 40x40 "terrain" island is not at all a practical way to test this issue properly and will certainly not sway his opinion one way or the other.

I have said this before, you have to do real battlefield type tests in order to get data which really means anything. In a confined space and with just a few units you are adding factors of global moral and suppression that will sway the results you see. These issues will affect ALL the units too, not just the poor halftrack either.

You are asking the TacAi to behave in a situation that is totally fake, units would never just APPEAR out of thin air so close and with no room to maneuver like that, even in poor visibility. You also have to be aware of the effects that moral has on all units when you run tests with such small samplings of units. Single casualties have a much bigger impact on moral in tests than they normally would in a standard sized battle.

I have performed such tests and as I said above I have given my findings to Charles. This past weekend I conducted massive tests regarding both the Close Assualt issue and some reported issues involving HE against soft skinned vehicles. I have also forwarded those results.

What is my opinion on these matters? Well, to be honest thats not really relevant here but rest assured that if I see something that I believe needs addressing Charles hears about it.

So, read what I have said, stop sending me files of halftracks being attacked, stop complaining that we aren't listening or don't care or whatever and just get back to PLAYING the game.

As it stands right now there are no plans for another patch. If that changes, we will let you know.

Madmatt

[Alexander]

Madmatt, it's not so much the legitimacy of the hothouse tests that posters have made so much as the well documented CHANGE in CA resolution apparent in recent versions of CM.

If BTS wants to move on to other projects or the new routine reflects an unannounced revision in philosophy, well, that's understandable. But it's a stretch to claim that nothing has changed.

[Jeff Heidman]

Oh well.

An unfortuante decision, and an unfortuante position for BTS to take. It would seem that we will have to live with nearly impervious half-tracks.

Jeff Heidman

[Jeff Heidman]

Can someone explain to me exactly how "global morale" allows half-tracks to shrug off a near-infinte number of infantry close assaults? I think I must have missed something. Is that mentioned in the manual somewhere?

Jeff Heidman

[pritzl]

I think the concern is that the halftracks are surviving so incredibly long under unrealistic test conditions. That's making people wonder if it's even worth the attmept to attack an HT under real battlefield conditions or will they simply be sending a squad out to die?

[Doug Williams]

Matt, thanks for taking the time to do all the testing you have been doing. Obviously, BTS is listening to it's customers, which I appreciate. If Charles, after looking at your tests, says he is happy with the way close assaults work, then fine, I'll shut up about it.

As to the island being unrealistic. You are right, it most certainly is. However, I would think, if anything, it deliberately skews the results in the favor of the infantry. It should be quite easy, I believe, for a platoon of infantry to make short work of a halftrack in such a situation. If the test is done on a larger battlefield, the halftrack just drives away.

Please let us know what Charles decides.

[Doug Williams]

Hey, this may sound stupid, but how about someone setting up a scenario with, say, 1500 points of infantry (with *no* AT weapons or HMGs) versus 1500 points of halftracks? Make a real battlefield map, say a rural area, and see what happens. It would be interesting.

[fubar628]

Well, I ran a series of tests too.

1st test:

4 Ami M3 halftracks against 6 German rifle platoons, the ht's defending a single vl on a 800 x 500 flat map.

Result after 5 tests, all 4 M3's ko'd in less than 6 min in all 5 tests. Germans used grernades and fausts to kill the M3's.

2nd test:

I did another QB with 4 Ami M3 halftracks against 6 German rifle platoons, the ht's defending a single vl on a map with everyone in an area surrounded by cliffs so that the tracks could not escape and were within grenade distance.

Result after 10 tests, all 4 M3's ko'd in less than 2 min in all 10 tests. The German's easily killed the tracks with fausts and grenades, sometimes in less than 20 sec.

3rd test:

I did another QB with 4 Ami M3 halftracks against 6 German rifle platoons, the ht's defending a single vl on a map with everyone in an area surrounded by cliffs so that the tracks could not escape and were within grenade distance. Germans edited so they did not have fausts.

Result after 10 tests, all 4 M3's ko'd in less than 6 min in all 10 tests. The longest survival was 6 min with the majority lasting no longer that 3 min.

Conclusion for me, 1.12 is working fine. In qb's and online, halftracks are not invulnerable.

[Guest Madmatt]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Can someone explain to me exactly how "global morale" allows half-tracks to shrug off a near-infinte number of infantry close assaults? I think I must have missed something.

Is that mentioned in the manual somewhere?

Jeff Heidman

No and neither is being a smart ass!

The global moral can affect the assualting infantry more than the halftrack espically if they take a few hits by the halftracks MG's. Either way it can skew the results of the attack. Proper testing protocol should try and simulate a real battle situation as accurately as possible.

When I do a 40x40 or 20x20 test island with a single M3A1 or a SPW 251/1 against a platoon of infantry it dies every time. EVERY TIME! 8 out 10 test show it dying in the first 30 seconds.

So either you aren't close assualting properly or luck just doesn't lie with you.

Why is it people think that running up to an armed and crewed vehicle that is trying to kill you and effectively disabling it should be such an easy task to perform?

As to the changes between 1.05 and 1.12 all I can do is reitertate what Charles said which was he made no changes to the close assualt code. Since close assualts only really occur at ranges of 10 meters or less that seems to hold true.

Apparently from what I see here people are seeing many grenades thrown at longer ranges and are perceiving that action as a close assualt. It is not.

Should those grenades thrown at such ranges still be so effective? Well, thats for Steve and Charles to decide and apparently they have.

Madmatt

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by fubar628:

Well, I ran a series of tests too.

{snip}

Conclusion for me, 1.12 is working fine. In qb's and online, halftracks are not invulnerable.

Ok

the issue is not with 'fausts

they work fine

it's just that some folks here have become "used to" the capability of a squad of guys to be able to take out an HT at 10 m without much difficulty with ONLY small arms and grenades within a minute. It now does not work that way any more.

But it now sounds like it is a dead issue

I think we can live with it

buit I suspect some here will continue to rant about it.

-tom w

[MCJuan]

Hi, i'm playing this game at home since november 2000, is the first time i visit your site and would like to know your opinion about the last version, it is a improvement for one who plays alone usually? : ))

[Guest Madmatt]

"it's just that some folks here have become "used to" the capability of a squad of guys to be able to take out an HT at 10 m without much difficulty with ONLY small arms and grenades within a minute. It now does not work that way any more."\

That is not entirely true. It is still very possible for a squad to effectivelyt close assualt a halftrack at under 10 meters. It seems to be beyond 10 meters (according to my tests) where it is more difficult. The odds against also increase if the vehicle is in motion.

Madmatt

[Spook]

As I "weighed in" on this issue in earlier posts, I will do so one final time to relate my final test experiences.

Using the 40X40 islands again, BUT setting the infantry squads much closer to the HT's (within a tile's length or 20m), most of the the HT's died VERY quickly when subjected to a platoon's worth of close-assault. How quickly this would've happened with only 1-2 squads hasn't been checked on.

Of course, this was all stated by others and by BTS earlier, but I am iterating for added guidance: close-assault against vehicles has to get within 20 meters to work consistently.

[Guest Space Thing]

I for one am grateful for the efforts of all at BTS in regards to what we say. Some game companies don't give a hoot what their customers say. Or at best they make it only "look" like they do.

Thanks Madmatt.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

"it's just that some folks here have become "used to" the capability of a squad of guys to be able to take out an HT at 10 m without much difficulty with ONLY small arms and grenades within a minute. It now does not work that way any more."\

That is not entirely true. It is still very possible for a squad to effectivelyt close assualt a halftrack at under 10 meters. It seems to be beyond 10 meters (according to my tests) where it is more difficult. The odds against also increase if the vehicle is in motion.

Madmatt

Hello,

I'm sure Matt knows by now I'm not really the confrontational type and I was only trying to suggest that some folks here feel as though something had changed in v1.12 when infantry close assult HT's.

We have been all over this issue and so when I said "it's just that some folks here have become "used to" the capability of a squad of guys to be able to take out an HT at 10 m without much difficulty with ONLY small arms and grenades within a minute. It now does not work that way any more." I meant that its "seems" to some here (and myself) that what used to be a routine close assualt operation to take an HT out with a squad of guys is no longer a given within the first minute. So the point was that myself and some others here feel that it looks like there has been a change. I think if we all now KNOW that this is the way HT's work we can plan around it, and work around it.I think this issue is managable and not a "deal breaker" by any means. I would like to humbly suggest that any close assault of any AFV with only small arms and grenades and no AT weapons will have the same effect as the HT. As others here have posted the Hellcats are also not equally hard to take out. I have attempted close assualts in games in "real" combat situations with US infantry (no AT weapons) against both a Tiger and Panther (ok only two expamples and possibly only "isolated" expamples) but in multiple close assault attempts against these two big cats all CA attempts were complete failures.!

I would say Be VERY wary of any close assaults with ONLY grenades and small arms on ANY AFV of any nation. I think it is a little different now in v1.12 and I am not really sure is it such a bad thing? Maybe it was all too easy before to CA AFV's without ANY AT weapons. AT weapons like PIAT's 'zooks 'shrecks, and 'fausts are still every bit as effective as they always were and MG's like the .50 cal and the MG 42 still work the same way they always did so I'm not sure this is a REALLY BIG deal.

I thank Matt for is response and the statement that this is the final version of CMBO and v1.12 is the final version we will see.

Thanks Matt !

-tom w

[Mr. Clark]

I just want to point out that my "sample" (the saved game that can be found on the previous page) was in fact taken from a "real" battle (the Arnhem Operation that ships with the game) and will show an HT shrug off bucketloads of grenades as it slowly presses its way through a wreckage heap.

But I'll shut up now...

(As Tom said, as long as I KNOW that HT's are now harder to kill WITH CLOSE ASSAULTS AND GRENADES... NOT FAUSTS, Or ZOOKS, or MG's, or cat poop... I can live with it. Thanks for the reply Matt!)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 02-18-2001).]

[Guest Madmatt]

I do fully appreciate your concerns (probably far more than most will ever realize) but when The Great Code Kahunua himself tells me it ain't changed than what can I do?!?

I think Charles is growing tired of this sort of exchange:

Mm:Hey Charles did Close Assaults change?

Charles: No

Mm: Are you sure?

Charles: Yes

Mm: Are you really really sure?

Charles: Yes

Mm: How about now?

Charles: Yes

Mm: Yes, as in they DID change?

Charles: No

Ad Infinitum...

Madmatt

[Guest Madmatt]

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

I just want to point out that my "sample" (the saved game that can be found on the previous page) was in fact taken from a "real" battle (the Arnhem Operation that ships with the game) and will show an HT shrug off bucketloads of grenades as it slowly presses its way through a wreckage heap.

But I'll shut up now...

(As Tom said, as long as I KNOW that HT's are now harder to kill WITH CLOSE ASSAULTS AND GRENADES... NOT FAUSTS, Or ZOOKS, or MG's, or cat poop... I can live with it. Thanks for the reply Matt!)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 02-18-2001).]

I looked at your file. It's important to note that only one squad is witin 10 meters of the halftrack and even so it can't really close assualt from a second story window to a vehicles that is over 30 feet away and on a bridge span. So all your troops can do is hurl grenades and hope one rolls close enough to take it out. With all those other vehicles blocking the area that might prove hard indeed. Not a very good test situation.

When I ran the file that halftrack lasted 46 seconds.

What I find interesting is that no one ever raised an eyebrow about the effectiveness of grenades against infantry all this time even though you will often see two squads also hurl bucketloads at each other while fighting close in with little effect. Grenades in CM have never been all that great of performers.

My *guess* is that some change in the code with the patch has now put grenades against vehicles (at beyond Close Assault range) more in line with the low effectivness they have always had. But it's just a guess...

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 02-19-2001).]

[fubar628]

"aka_tom_w

Originally posted by fubar628:

Well, I ran a series of tests too.

{snip}

Conclusion for me, 1.12 is working fine. In qb's and online, halftracks are not invulnerable.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok

the issue is not with 'fausts

they work fine"

If you read my post, you will see that I ran 3 tests. the third was with the Germans edited so they did not have fausts, only grenades and whatever weapon they were carrying. Result, the halftracks all died in 10 out of 10 tests. The map was made so that the halftracks could not retreat out of grenade range i.e. about 30 metres

So, the problem with this is..???

[This message has been edited by fubar628 (edited 02-19-2001).]

[Mr. Clark]

Thanks again Matt!

After your description/reminder of grenades effectiveness v. squads, I can understand the entire situation a little better.

I do think grenades used to take down HT's easier before, but now at least I can understand why they probably should not!

Thanks.

(Now I must go post a complaint about the effectiveness of grenades v. infantry...)

J/K

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 02-19-2001).]

[Jeff Heidman]

Matt,

Thanks for taking the time to tell us what is/was going on.

I am not really convinced that the answer is particularly realistic, but I can certainly live with it.

Like I said before, in 95% of games, the issue of infantry close assaulting half-tracks without fausts, rifle-grenades or gammon bombs will never come up. Most of the time there are so many fun and varied ways to kill tracks that the need to get down and dirty with them is just not there.

I apologize for the sarcasm. It added nothing to the discussion.

Jeff Heidman

[aka_tom_w]

I'm hoping someone will attempt to download this scenario and let me know if the download works:

http://142.55.231.199/aka_tom/httest2.zip

Can you get to that file and download it?

If so can you play the germans?

There are 1995 points worth of Reg Rifle 44 squads (19 platoons = 57 squads)

against

428 points of US M3A1 HT's (8)

2 x Green

3 x Reg

1 x Vet

1 x Crack

1 x Elite

So Play the Germans and tell me how you can win this one?

I'll bet you can't.

those 8 HT's under AI command will advance toward the one and only Major VL Flag and other than button them up and shock them there is VERY little those poor Rifle 44 squads (all 57 of them) can do to pull a victory out of the hat.

My appologies to MadMatt..

I said I would stop ranting about this one

(oops I guess I was mistaken)

BUT when there is no way for 1995 points of Infantry with no AT weapons to take out 428 points of UNSUPPORTED U.S. M3A1 Half Tracks I think there is an issue here that should be looked at.

Try it

Play either side, Play the U.S. and be an IDIOT commander you still can't lose, even if the Germans swarm the VL Flag the U.S. still can't lose.

so 428 to 1995 that's about 4 :1 in points and in my humble opinion there is NO way for the german infantry to play to victory in this one.

This is not a 40 x 40 Island

It is a Scenario that you play in 30 minutes with one major VL in the middle of the field.

Good luck I would be very interested in your results.

And again Thanks to Matt for reminding us that this is a Dead issue and that there will be no more patches

So Why do I bother?

Well I'm just that kind of guy......

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-19-2001).]

[engy]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I'm hoping someone will attempt to download this scenario and let me know if the download works:

http://142.55.231.199/aka_tom/httest2.zip

Can you get to that file and download it?

If so can you play the germans?

There are 1995 points worth of Reg Rifle 44 squads (19 platoons = 57 squads)

against

428 points of US M3A1 HT's (8)

2 x Green

3 x Reg

1 x Vet

1 x Crack

1 x Elite

So Play the Germans and tell me how you can win this one?

I'll bet you can't.

those 8 HT's under AI command will advance toward the one and only Major VL Flag and other than button them up and shock them there is VERY little those poor Rifle 44 squads (all 57 of them) can do to pull a victory out of the hat.

My appologies to MadMatt..

I said I would stop ranting about this one

(oops I guess I was mistaken)

BUT when there is no way for 1995 points of Infantry with no AT weapons to take out 428 points of UNSUPPORTED U.S. M3A1 Half Tracks I think there is an issue here that should be looked at.

Try it

Play either side, Play the U.S. and be an IDIOT commander you still can't lose, even if the Germans swarm the VL Flag the U.S. still can't lose.

so 428 to 1995 that's about 4 :1 in points and in my humble opinion there is NO way for the german infantry to play to victory in this one.

This is not a 40 x 40 Island

It is a Scenario that you play in 30 minutes with one major VL in the middle of the field.

Good luck I would be very interested in your results.

And again Thanks to Matt for reminding us that this is a Dead issue and that there will be no more patches

So Why do I bother?

Well I'm just that kind of guy......

-tom w

Ok. Downloaded it.

Comment: You couldn't have placed the VL in a more difficult spot for the infantry to hold--right out in the middle of nowhere. No cover around the flag for a good 100m. The 8 halftracks become armored MG positions due to the lack of any AT capability on the German side.

I played Axis and let the AI take the US.

Results:

Turn 20, American Auto-surrender. 6 Halftracks already knocked out, other 2 are running for the hills. I lost 65 casualties.

My tactics? Sit in the woods/brush/rough and shock/button every halftrack. Then using rough move orders ('boxing' 6-8 units at a time), I sent them moving to locations in front and behind each halftrack, so when it wanted to move away, it had to move past/through a group of infantry. Starting with turn 10, I knocked out about 1 halftrack per turn.

engy

[This message has been edited by engy (edited 02-19-2001).]