Not Buying CM2 because .....

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spook:

A good slug of new computer users, however, just buy into what they think their options are. So, the majority of new computer purchases will be loaded with Win XP alone, for better or worse.<hr></blockquote>

Well, that's the problem.

a) Most computer users have no idea what they purchase, or they just don't care.

And even if they know - they don't have an alternative, except they are able to build a PC from the scratch and purchase and install an OS of their choice. I don't think that their are much PCs to purchase with, for example, Linux as OS.

c) Even if you could purchase a complete PC with Linux - most programms only support Windows. Because Windows is the most used OS. Because is nearly impossible to get a PC without it. The snake is eating it's own tail.

[Doug Williams]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Geez -- I haven't seen so many people feeding a troll since I accidentally withdrew my

wounded AD&D party into the wrong room in Pool of Radiance I. <hr></blockquote>

Ahhhh, the "two trolls tossing a sack of flour" room. Tough fight!

Linda could have used some more tact, but I'm glad she brought this issue up. I didn't consider it "minor" when it ruined my enjoyment of my favorite game. Fortunately, XP made itself very easy to uninstall and go back to W98. Unfortunately, people who buy new PCs with XP installed probably won't have that option. This will cause loss of sales for BTS unless the problem is addressed. Like was mentioned earlier, "basic marketing 101".

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doug Williams:

How often do we actually upgrade six pieces of hardware at once?<hr></blockquote>

Who gives Microsoft the right to demand a registration ONCE from me? I'm ashamed to be a Microsoft customer - I won't let anyone know about it!

Who gives Microsoft the right to observe my Computer for upgrades?

As I understand EULA, I buy the right to use the XP on one Computer. What if I purchase/build a complete new computer and want to install XP on my new PC? Will they say, sorry, purchase a new copy for your new computer!?

For me this are to much questions about XP.

[Doug Williams]

Scipio,

I'm no huge fan of Microsoft, nor am I any sort of expert on software legalities, but if you want me to play "Devil's Advocate" as a purely intellectual exercise, I'll have a go.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Who gives Microsoft the right to demand a registration ONCE from me? <hr></blockquote>

If demanding a registration is part of the contract for purchasing and installing the software, then you clicking "I Accept" gives them the right.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Who gives Microsoft the right to observe my Computer for upgrades? <hr></blockquote>

Again, when you click "I Accept".

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>As I understand EULA, I buy the right to use the XP on one Computer. What if I purchase/build a complete new computer and want to install XP on my new PC? Will they say, sorry, purchase a new copy for your new computer!? <hr></blockquote>

As I understand it, you buy the right to install the software on one computer. If you purchase/build a new computer and install the software on it, you are supposed to uninstall it from the old computer or purchase another copy of the software. This is nothing new. What is new is now it will be harder to get away with non compliance of this law. Not impossible, just more difficult.

[Joe Shaw]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Linda could have used some more tact, but I'm glad she brought this issue up.<hr></blockquote> I think if you'll look through the responses to "her" (I even have my doubts about that ... Linda WarChest ... come on) you'll find that there are two issues. One is that "Linda" is a jerk, likely a troll and referring to her as needing "some more tact" is like saying that Jack the Ripper had "some issues with women." Her diatribe was rude and unjustified. If she had an issue she could have mentioned it, waited a REASONABLE time to get a resolution and then posted a follow up. The second issue is the usual "I hate MS because ..." crowd and since there's little practical option (to MS I mean, XP is obviously a matter of choice ... and no I DON'T want to get into a PC vs. Mac debate EITHER ) I don't think that counts.

I don't doubt that the video card / XP issue is one that BTS should be/ is looking into, but it's not THEIR fault that MS or the video card makers create new products that aren't compatible with CM. I'm also quite certain that BTS is looking into the issue, has ANYONE here seen a game company with customer service that rivals that of BTS?

Joe

[GenSplatton]

Interesting arguments all around. First off, I must say I see no need to upgrade to XP. I use 98SE and have ZERO problems with it. I never get blue screens, my games all work, and I'm happy.

Secondly, will this problem cost BTS? I doubt it. Most of us will be the ones purchasing CM2. Wargamers are a small community, I doubt to many "new" gamers will be waiting with baited breath to jump on the CM bandwagon. We CM players will be the CM2 players. We all know the issues with XP, so I doubt it is going to have much of an effect, if any, on sales.

Thirdly, NVidia may be aware of the problem but, like I said, the CM community is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. So I don't expect them to spend much time fixing the problem as they have bigger fish to fry. As for BTS fixing the problem, can they? Is this even something they could address? Sounds to me like the problem will have to be addressed by NVidia, but I may be wrong. I'm no graphics guru.

Finally, yes, Linda is a troll. The message remains the same with no effort whatsoever to provide valid or even well thought out arguments one way or another. Who knows, maybe Derek SMart got tired of fighting with Homeworld fanatics and wanted to try another crowd out for size.

[Doug Williams]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I think if you'll look through the responses to "her" (I even have my doubts about that ... Linda WarChest ... come on) you'll find that there are two issues. One is that "Linda" is a jerk, likely a troll and referring to her as needing "some more tact" is like saying that Jack

the Ripper had "some issues with women." Her diatribe was rude and unjustified. If she

had an issue she could have mentioned it, waited a REASONABLE time to get a resolution and then posted a follow up. <hr></blockquote>

Ok, I went back and re-read her original post and all her responses. Like I said, she was a little tactless and jumping to conclusions, but she never did any name calling. She was basically told to go away and "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out". Not a good response on our part and that won't win any new customers for BTS. She came into our sandbox and kicked a little sand, so we get all defensive and tell her to get lost. I don't know if she was trolling or not. She (or he), could actually have a new PC with XP installed and a copy of CM. If so, she/he is most certainly experiencing problems.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The second issue is the usual "I hate MS because ..." crowd and since there's little practical option (to MS I mean, XP is obviously a matter of choice ... and no I DON'T want to get into a PC vs. Mac debate EITHER ) I don't think that counts. <hr></blockquote>

I agree. It is hip to hate Microsoft. Everybody hates 'em. I bet Bill Gates is crying all the way to the bank. As for the "buy a Mac" crowd. No thanks. I like to game, and too many games are never released on the Mac platform.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I don't doubt that the video card / XP issue is one that BTS should be/ is looking into, but it's not THEIR fault that MS or the video card makers create new products that aren't

compatible with CM. <hr></blockquote>

I agree. But it's BTS, not Nvidia or Microsoft, who will suffer if this problem isn't fixed.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I'm also quite certain that BTS is looking into the issue, has ANYONE here seen a game company with customer service that rivals that of BTS? <hr></blockquote>

Can't say I have. They're a good bunch of guys who care about their product. I'm sure they are concerned about this.

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doug Williams:

I agree. But it's BTS, not Nvidia or Microsoft, who will suffer if this problem isn't fixed.<hr></blockquote>

Really? I tell every CM player that I know that CM don't run on XP. Because of this, they don't purchase XP. Well, even if this won't make Billy sleepless nights...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> If demanding a registration is part of the contract for purchasing and installing the software, then you clicking "I Accept" gives them the right. <hr></blockquote>

For me it's a simple question with a simple answer : I don't accept.

Doug, if you don't like MS, why do you defend them? If the problem is caused by XP or NVidia, why do you expect from BTS that they solve this problem for them?

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Joe Shaw]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Ok, I went back and re-read her original post and all her responses. Like I said, she was a little tactless and jumping to conclusions, but she never did any name calling.<hr></blockquote> No ,not specifically, but saying "An answer from BTS is REQUIRED" is as bad as name calling, at least in my opinion. She may be from New York for all I know and was trying to be polite (KIDDING, JUST KIDDING, I LOVE New York ... really). If I got a definitive response from a game company THE DAY AFTER I POSTED I would be thrilled. The fact that she couldn't wait THREE HOURS speaks volumes. Speaking of which, Rune's response seems reasonable to me ... of course I don't have a problem so I may be biased . <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>She was basically told to go away and "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out". Not a good response on our part and that won't win any new customers for BTS. She came into our sandbox and kicked a little sand, so we get all defensive and tell her to get lost.<hr></blockquote> To be fair, only one person made that comment and there were a number of supportive and helpful comments made. She wasn't interested in listening to any of them. Look at the thread title ... what does the issue at hand have to do with CM2? Does she REALLY think that BTS won't be moving heaven and earth to be sure that their NEWEST release is fully compatible with current OS and video cards? <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I don't know if she was trolling or not. She (or he), could actually have a new PC with XP

installed and a copy of CM. If so, she/he is most certainly experiencing problems.<hr></blockquote> Again, not necessarily. I read a couple of responses that reported no problems with her exact system. Anyone who has been around computer games for any period of time knows that this kind of thing happens all the time. It was NOT the fault of BTS and BTS has shown very good faith in their efforts to resolve the problem, IMO.

Bottom line ... there is clearly a problem with some OS and video card mixes. Having had this happen to me in the past I know how frustrating it can be. The ISSUE is an important one, the manner in which Linda handled it was boorish and deserving of censure.

Your mileage, of course, may vary

Joe

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

Are you aware that XP has a Win 98 mode? Why don't you try and run it under that mode. If it doesn't work then come back and let us know.<hr></blockquote>

from what i have read, that is only for the interface, the oe and it's issues will remian, thats just a feature for people used to the 98 setup who like it better

[Doug Williams]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Really? I tell every CM player that I know that CM don't run on XP. Because of this, they

don't purchase XP. Well, even if this won't make Billy sleepless nights... <hr></blockquote>

Yes, but what about new BTS customers who already have XP installed? Plus, not all BTS customers are as fanatical as we forum posters. Given an either/or situation, they may choose XP over CM.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>For me it's a simple question with a simple answer : I don't accept. <hr></blockquote>

Then you are forever stuck with an outdated OS.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Doug, if you don't like MS, why do you defend them? <hr></blockquote>

I neither like, nor dislike them. Microsoft is like death and taxes, they are a fact of life.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>If the problem is caused by XP or

NVidia, why do you expect from BTS that they solve this problem for them? <hr></blockquote>

Like I said, it would be in BTS' best interest if this problem were solved. Microsoft probably couldn't care less. Nvidia might care, if they heard from enough CM users.

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Doug Williams ]</p>

[Soddball]

My issues with XP range from the basic "I don't want Microsoft dictating when I can upgrade my PC" to the logical "Why don't we wait for 9 months until the 'Please take all my files Mr Hacker' security issues are sorted out." Anyone who upgrades from one OS to another and doesn't expect trouble is an imbecile and knows nothing about computers.

But yes, I will be a good boy and stop feeding the troll. Vacant Linda will have to try somewhere else.

[Doug Williams]

Joe,

Whether she was being majorly unreasonable, or just a little tactless is just a matter of opinion. You have yours, I have mine.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Anyone who has been around computer games for any period of time knows that this kind of thing happens all the time. It was NOT the fault of BTS and BTS has shown very good faith in their efforts to resolve the problem, IMO. <hr></blockquote>

Well, I have been around computer games since there have been personal computers, and you're right, it happens all the time. I know it's not BTS fault, but I contend that BTS will be the only company that suffers if the issue isn't resolved. As for them showing good faith in their efforts to resolve the problem, the only effort I know about is their letting Nvidia know about the problem. Now, I'm not saying that they should have to do any more than that, but, again, it's their sales that will suffer the most if the problem isn't fixed. They don't need to worry about me, I'll buy CMBB whether it works with XP and GeForce or not. Probably the same can be said about most forum posters. But we are the "fanatic fringe", the "hard core" BTS supporters.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Bottom line ... there is clearly a problem with some OS and video card mixes. Having had

this happen to me in the past I know how frustrating it can be. The ISSUE is an important

one, the manner in which Linda handled it was boorish and deserving of censure. <hr></blockquote>

Her demands were somewhat tactless, agreed.

[0time]

Ahh Linda?

Seeing has how you uninstalled CM, Iguess you won't be needing it.

Sooo I was thinking, could you send it to me? Because I don't have a copy.

Tanks a lot.

[Tanaka]

Scipio,

You are preaching a valid religion, but some souls are a waist of time, some of them just like to be mounted, simple has that ! :cool:

[The_Capt]

Gentleman,

Please a little patience with Ms Warchest. She is a newbie. As such she has not had time to become properly addicted to CM.

If your system does not operate CM1 the answer is blindingly simple....

Make sure to disconnect your monitor and speakers first. You will need a permit for the fire. Oh ya, try and recycle, earth love and all that.

[Michael Emrys]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tanaka:

Scipio,

You are preaching a valid religion, but some souls are a waist of time, some of them just like to be mounted, simple has that ! :cool: <hr></blockquote>

Mounted???

:confused:

Michael

[Doug Williams]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Scipio,

You are preaching a valid religion, but some souls are a waist of time, some of them just like to be mounted, simple has that ! <hr></blockquote>

Ahhhh, sexual innuendo, I was wondering how long it would take. When reason fails, bring up sex or Hitler.

I actually sympathize with Scipio. I don't like the "required registration" either. I was a vociferous opponent of DIVX (remember that?). I also raised a hue and cry when Edensoft released Red Storm (I think that was the name), the first game (to my knowledge) that required a key code to operate. It was a miserable failure, though it may have been a good game.

If Microsoft wants to do this, no amount of crying about it will do any good. You will either agree to thier terms, become a software pirate, or be stuck with an old OS that will become more and more incompatible with new software as time goes on.

Scipio's religion is "It's better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven." I don't see it that way.

[Spook]

Leastways, I commend your line of thinking, Doug.

Again, this impending situation isn't BTS's fault; it's merely the circumstance to be dealt with. And again, I wouldn't require for BTS to develop yet another patch for CMBO. That game first released a year & a half ago, well past the "diminishing returns" point of most PC games, so that continued work on it might be a drain on working up CMBB instead.

For CMBB, however, it's a different matter. Compatibility with Win XP, and media drivers in XP, will likely have to be addressed at some point. When Win98 released, I remember that a few games designed earlier for Win95 had some "hiccups" in transition, but regardless, it was the game designers that had to adapt to the new system, not MS rewriting Win98 to cover all game designs.

So yeah, the premise is unfair in that it's extra work for BTS to deal with. But in all truth, who's in the better position to dig its heels in, if in an impasse over game operating requirements?

[Rodimzew]

Please rename this thread to STH like "not upgrading to XP because...."

It is just a matter of sense...because as battlefront.com seems to be a home of CM grognards, why should we discuss an issue like "not buying STH that is main thread of this website"...

at least i will buy CM2, (has anybody noted that, yes) and this discussion is reason enough not to try any laboratory research with XP or nvidia cards...

BTW, i'm still happy with my relic pc, a simple intel PII, with 98 and an voodoo2 graphics card...

CMBO runs on it, hopefully CM2 does....

so what...

[Ralph Beaman]

Hey guys lets help this person out! It is no fault of the person buying the sofware or the operating system that is in question,it is the responsibility of the people in charge to apply the proper guidence in fixing the problem. if the the frustration lies beyond a buyers control, lets guide our freind in need and not shoot the messanger. Good points by Linda, i am not buying a copy of the second edition to CMBO either, until all the problems are solved. In my opionion, it is a superior game, but it has a great deal of problems with video cards, from a lay-mens point of veiw. BATTLEFRONT ROCKS !!!!!

[Spook]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rodimzew:

BTW, i'm still happy with my relic pc, a simple intel PII, with 98 and an voodoo2 graphics card...

CMBO runs on it, hopefully CM2 does....

so what... <hr></blockquote>

At one time earlier, BTS (Steve) related that for CMBB, a 600Mhz processor speed is the recommended "low end." Likely your system will run CMBB, but at what speed remains to be seen.

[Rodimzew]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spook:

At one time earlier, BTS (Steve) related that for CMBB, a 600Mhz processor speed is the recommended "low end." Likely your system will run CMBB, but at what speed remains to be seen.<hr></blockquote>

THX, so far....

Santa Claus knows already about CM2, it seems i have to write him a thread about my need for a new (possibly non XP) system before CMBB is released.

my question is, if there are further requirements known for a system that should host CMBB, related to memory or graphics..???

[Linda WarChest]

Well it has been 24 hours since the thread started and BTS still has not come out with a statement about anything !!

Seems that those of you who follow your CM leaders so blindly have had an eye opening experience.

THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOU !

I believe this is what BTS is really thinking:

"Just send us your money like a bunch of sheeple. It doesn't matter if the CM software works, as long as we have your money ! We are big now, we don't care about our customers anymore, bye suckers!"

[Terence]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Linda WarChest:

Well it has been 24 hours since the thread started and BTS still has not come out with a statement about anything !!

Seems that those of you who follow your CM leaders so blindly have had an eye opening experience.

THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOU !

I believe this is what BTS is really thinking:

"Just send us your money like a bunch of sheeple. It doesn't matter if the CM software works, as long as we have your money ! We are big now, we don't care about our customers anymore, bye suckers!"<hr></blockquote>

DNFTT