German Assault Rifle

[coe]

I remember seeing that the AK47 was a derivative of a german assault rifle used late in the war....Will that assualt rifle be incorporated into future german squads (CM2?)

[Chupacabra]

It already is. The MP 44 is what you're thinking of.

And the AK isn't a direct descendent from what I understand. IIRC the firing mechanism is completely different and it's chambered for a different round. They look similar, but the guts are different.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Tiger]

If you look closely in Late war German Infantry squads in the game (usually SS) you will see the Sturmgewehr44 modeled.

The AK47 used a number of features from the Sturmgewehr44. This weapon is first real assault rifle. It was the first to have selective fire from full-auto, semi-auto and single-shot. Intrestingly enough the book on it I have states that Hitler was not in favor of this new assault rifle and had ordered that further development of the prototype be halted. Albert Speer and others deceived him by labeling it the MP44, until he later found out about it and was finally convinced of its awesome potential.

Here's a pic of it:

[Humus B. Chittenbee]

Tiger - -

I sincerely hope that is not you (or someone you trained) in the pic.

The three rules of gun safety:

1] Keep your finger off the trigger.

2] Keep your *GD* finger off the trigger.

3] Keep your *GD mf* finger off the *GD* trigger!!

- - - and we wonder why we read about shooting "accidents" in the news!

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***Sôphrosunê***

[Guest MantaRay]

And smoking causes cancer and other related heath issues. So if your gun safety doesn't kill ya, your smoking will

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[MarkD]

Man Tiger is that you?? I love to have one of those but I understand they do for $7,000+! Hehe nice picture though..

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Humus B. Chittenbee:

Tiger - -

I sincerely hope that is not you (or someone you trained) in the pic.

Oh my god! I can forsee this very picture being used on the front cover of the re-release of the classic Avalon Hill wargame "Up Front". Makes that drawing of the SS stormtrooper they used originally look like a complete wuus! Imagine the controvesy THIS picture would cause if released...

Regards

Jim R.

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by Tiger:

assault rifle. It was the first to have selective fire from full-auto, semi-auto and single-shot. Intrestingly enough the book on

Was that a typo or did it really have a firing mode where you had to pull back the "hammer" after every shot?

What's the "hammer" called in automatic weapons in English again? Different from rifles?

[Hilltopper]

Yep, that's a MP44 and you can see it in the game.

Excellent advice to keep the finger off the trigger...geez, city slickers!!

[Skipper]

As the legend goes, Kalashnikov designed the original AK in 1943, when he was a young sergeant passing his time in a hospital after receiving a wound on the front.

MP44, as suggested by the index, was issued to the troops in 1944.

Apart from somewhat similar looks (from some 300 meters distance, anyway), and similar idea (a real rifle that can shoot bursts) the two designs have almost nothing else in common.

And isn't AK-47 a chinese version of same? At least, there never was AK-47 in soviet army - there was AK, AKM, AKSU etc.

[Warmaker]

The book I got "German Automatic Weapons of World War II" goes quite a bit into the MP-44/Sturmgewehr-44. It is the granddaddy of assault rifles. Why? Unlike battle rifles it gave the excellent blend of selective firing. Important I think for automatic in close range situtations(give me back full auto for my M16A2!). Didn't have the long range accuracy of a rifle naturally. As far as the development, yea Hitler wasn't too keen on different infantry weapons and seemed to highly favor "offensive" weapons like the MP-40, hence his deception by others of the new weapon as MP-44 disguising it as a sub-machinegun by the MP designation. He surely would have shot it down if he found out. A story goes that he discovered soon enough when he was decorating some Eastern Front Knights Cross awardees. It was customary for these type of men to put a request in to Hitler. When he asks these men they all wanted more of these "new rifles" for their troops. Hitler naturally thought "what new rifles?" and sh!# almost hit the fan until he got some sort of demonstration and reports finally. Turns out he really liked it and he liked the term Sturmgewehr(assault rifle) and had it redesignated as the StG-44. The StG-44 was officially adopted as the primary weapon of the German infantry but this was impossible to put into practice due to the strain of industry by 1943-44. The weapon was quite reliable, the designers (i.e. Hugo Schmeisser) going into lengths to catering to the rugged Eastern Front. It also fired the 7.92mm x 33mm "Kurz" rounds, basically a shortened version of the full size 7.92mm rounds.

BTW, yes the StG-44 was formally issued to units by 1944 but limited numbers were issued to the Eastern Front for field testing way earlier. The book goes into a story of Kampfgruppe Scherer who was encircled by boatloads of Russians of the 3rd Shock Army in early 1943. The Germans got an emergency airdrop of the MKb42(early versions of the StG-44). The issued the new toys to the infantry and the Kampfgruppe was able to break through despite the odds. The men contributed their success due to the big increase of firepower to an individual with the new assault rifle. But another story goes that it was actually tested later by the 5th SS Division"Wiking" in spring 1943 and was endorsed by them. And no, you don't have to pull the charging handle back after every shot like bolt action rilfes. Bolt action rifles in an automatic weapon war is quite a bad thing.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 02-26-2001).]

[Skipper]

So, the idea of AK could be inspired by the -44 then. It still is a totally different machine.

[Warmaker]

Yes, their different alright but remember the StG is the granddaddy, even to the AK47. It was first to have the following characteristics in one handheld weapon: To fire a powerful cartridge with better ranges than say the 9mmP of the MP-40 and engage targets with longer ranges than the SMGs. With the shorter cartridge it also allowed a much more controllabe automatic firing. Also, it held rougly 30 rounds of ammunition in a magazine. The assault rifle holds a wonderful blend of a the SMG and rifle. Again, the StG is the first to the punch and gets it's title of granddaddy.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Lordfluffers]

The three rules of gun safety:

1] Keep your finger off the trigger.

2] Keep your *GD* finger off the trigger.

3] Keep your *GD mf* finger off the *GD* trigger!!

MantaRay 'And smoking causes cancer and other related heath issues. So if your gun safety doesn't kill ya, your smoking will'

And then Tiger, if the smoking or accidental firing doesn't get you, the FBI will assume you are some kind of fascist/anarchist and gun you down to defend the 'freedom of the United Stated of America'. Amen

[T-34\85]

What if the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Luftwaffe got everything they wanted?

Every infantryman with a Stg-44, nothing but Panthers (no pissy PzIVs), King Tigers in place of Tigers, nothing but Jagdpanthers as tank destroyers (no Hetzers, no Jagdpanzer IVs)... Me-262s (with reliable engines) in place of the Me-109 and Fw-190 .... it boggles the mind

I love modelling a scenario in The Operational Art of War to reflect that

[Guest machineman]

Originally posted by T-34\85:

Every infantryman with a Stg-44, nothing but Panthers (no pissy PzIVs), King Tigers in place of Tigers, nothing but Jagdpanthers as tank destroyers (no Hetzers, no Jagdpanzer IVs)... Me-262s (with reliable engines) in place of the Me-109 and Fw-190 .... it boggles the mind

Take away the bombing campaign and that is exactly what they would have gotten.

[Warmaker]

About that hypothetical situation with German weapons/equipment I remember watching something on the Discovery Channel about the Luftwaffe's projects and they had some VERY interesting stuff going until the last months of the war. They had a 4-engined bomber to reach continental Europe to the U.S.'s East Coast in the works to possibly carry an atomic bomb, everyone knows of the cutting edge Me-262, and it went on with some other stuff that they actually used in scale. But what got me the most was that in response to the overwhelming Allied airpower and the bombers esp., they had another jet powered aircraft as a prototype. Unlike the Me-262 the designers also had agility in mind. But the key development for the jet was that Germany was actually quite close to fielding air to air missiles for it and were quite close to production had the war dragged on, especially another year. Forgot the designation of the aircraft/prototype but it looks VERY familiar to the later Korean War era MIGs/F-86 Sabres. Anyhow, even with few of these jets airborne since each could have carried at least four of these bulky missiles the Allied bombers could do very little in defense. This jet and the AA missile would've been ALOT more practical to Germany than the Maus super-heavy-with-a-kitchen-sink tank. Though the German regime did some godawful stuff, you gotta admit, despite large losses and a relentless bombing campaign they were hot on some good weaponry.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 02-27-2001).]

[tss]

machineman wrote:

Take away the bombing campaign and that is exactly what they would have gotten.

No they wouldn't. Strategic bombing was very important but it effects didn't start to show before end of '43 and it got really effective in late '44. By that time Germans had already hit their resource limits.

On the subject of gun safety. When my brother was in the army, one of his company-mates killed another by playing around with an "unloaded" pistol. As they say, an "empty" gun is the most dangerous one.

The correct procedure to unload an assault rifle is to first take the magazine out, then pull the loading mechanism to eject the chambered round, and finally fire an empty shot to release the firing pin.

Well, when I was in the army one of my squad mates reversed the first two steps. Fortunately, that "empty" shot was a blank and not a live round. The sergeant who was sleeping in the nearby tent was not amused. Later, that guy was put into kitchen work because no-one wanted him near anything that could explode.

A couple of years before I was in the army one private did the same mistake and managed to kill himself with a blank round.

- Tommi

[Skipper]

On the german uberplanes, according to Oleg Maddox, the boss of IL-2 project, every uberplane project was finished to the stage of a flyable prototype in USSR, and although some ideas were found useful, none of them was put into production.

OTOH, the first ballistic missile in soviet service was indeed a heavily modified FAU-2 (saw that thing myself in RVSN museum).

[Warmaker]

Those prototype jets and missiles I saw on that documentary was quite shocking to me. I mean, a country at the end of it's line with little resources remaining and Ivan starting to kick the door was still able to pump out some advanced weapons. Lancasters/B17s/B29s vs Air to Air missiles? Sorry, no contest, escort or no escort. Not like the heavy bombers could've evaded well enough anyways.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Brian Rock]

Lancasters/B17s/B29s vs Air to Air missiles? Sorry, no contest, escort or no escort. Not like the heavy bombers could've evaded well enough anyways.

Maybe, maybe not. There are a few things that aren't clear. What kind of guidance system did these missles had and how reliable they were spring to mind.

Even in the 1960s missle tech was pretty buggy. For example IR missles had a distressing tendency to lock onto the sun.

Not quite sure what this has to do with assault rifles, BTW, but it is an interesting topic.

[T-34\85]

Altering the TOE of an Operational Art of War scenario to give Germany the best it ever had in place of all the average rubbish (god how I hate the PzIV ... whats the point of playing as the Germans if you're using a Nazified Sherman!) has revealed that it does make a difference ..... but at least in TOAW it won't bring you victory ... especially on the Russian front!

[Red Dog]

Originally posted by Brian Rock:

Maybe, maybe not. There are a few things that aren't clear. What kind of guidance system did these missles had and how reliable they were spring to mind.

The missile (Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4) was wire guided by the gunner. Check out http://visi.net/~djohnson/missile/x-4.html for more info on this neat toy.

There were also larger ground launched missiles as well; the Rheinmetall-Borsig "Feuerlilie" and the EMW C2 "Wasserfall".

http://visi.net/~djohnson/missile/rheinf55.html

http://visi.net/~djohnson/missile/wasserfl.html

and just to keep things somewhat on topic, there was also a wire guided anti-tank missile which was designed to be carried by a half-track (can't recall if it was the sdfk 251 or not).

[Red Dog]

Originally posted by Skipper:

On the german uberplanes, according to Oleg Maddox, the boss of IL-2 project, every uberplane project was finished to the stage of a flyable prototype in USSR, and although some ideas were found useful, none of them was put into production.

Actually that's not true, the Soviets built a Focke-Wulf Ta 183 "Huckebein" from a complete set of plans and in May 1948 it was ordered into production as the MIG 15.

Also, Kurt Tank (the head of design for Focke-Wulf) went to Argentina after the war were he also built the Ta 183 renamed the "Pulqui II" for the Argentine airforce.

and let's not forget the Ho XVIIIA "Amerika Bomber", ever compare it to the B-2 "Spirit" Stealth Bomber?...

[This message has been edited by Red Dog (edited 02-28-2001).]

[JunoReactor]

About air-to-air missiles: Germans actually used them to intercept bombers. They were heavy, had short range and unguided but bould be used on single-seated fighters.

More interesting, an aerial bomb. 250lb, I think. It had a short time fuse. Fighters would fly over a bomber formation and drop these on unsuspecting B17 crews. I dont know how efficient it was.

And, did anyone see the latest design on the Komet (Me163, I belive)... Since the thing had about 5 minutes worth of fuel, someone had the idea of planting an ejector seat in there. The pilot would guide the plane towards the bomber, and eject. Talk about desperate measures.

About the bombing campaign - really, how effective was it? I like to think that Hitler caused more delays in advanced weapons production than bombing campaigns, especially before the second half of 44.