Phoenix Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Ok...can someone explain this?? During a game (PBEM) Im doing I've got some veteran units under C&C of a HQ unit with a +2 stealth rating...all three squads are crawling along through woods. Suddenly, one of the squads stands up, and takes shots at a fleeing enemy unit 400+ meters away. Obviously they have zero impact at this range except to draw the attention of an enemy tank the wheels around and lands an HE round on top of them. from 500 meters. And another Inf unit that opens up on them. While I realize that "stuff happens", isn't this a bit odd? Veteran units, +2 stealth, crawling so as to be unseen. Should I have been "sneaking" instead?? I mean I figured crawling WAS like sneaking in that units would not engage unless fired upon. Ugh. Very annoying. Input please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Crawling is moving from one place to another while keeping your ass low But you knew that already. Seriously, crawling is just moving with maximum protection. Sneaking is what you order when you wish to remain unseen. Warning. Use sneak at your own risk. Unless it's been tweaked in the beta, sneaking will cause your units to move within meters of an enemy unit (if the terrain is right) without them returning fire. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Hmm...I often question that myself. Sneaking is supposed to represent slowly advancing to and from any cover along the way. Crawling is crawling. I don't know. From my expirience sneaking is best used in woods or movement from building to building. I only use crawl when I want guys to move stealthly out in the open in the absence of visible cover (like having a zook crawl up a hill to nail a distracted tank) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis: Crawling is moving from one place to another while keeping your ass low But you knew that already. Seriously, crawling is just moving with maximum protection. Sneaking is what you order when you wish to remain unseen. Warning. Use sneak at your own risk. Unless it's been tweaked in the beta, sneaking will cause your units to move within meters of an enemy unit (if the terrain is right) without them returning fire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ugh. I mean, yeah, I know crawling means being on your stomach and crawling...but I figured it was "sneakier" than "sneaking". I may have gotten suckered in by the graphics which show guys down on the ground crawling as opposed to guys "sneaking" who look like they're out for a walk in the woods. Pisses me off. That stupid 400+ meter engagement then brought on the wrath of some 105 arty that messed me up. Worse, the whole concealment was blow. I still say the guys should not have popped up to take a stupid shot like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Crawling is also horrendously slow and will quickly tire your infantry. ------------------ "Moriarty, you suck." -- Dunno, but somebody must've said it somewhere along the line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 I don't know? Does the stealth [?] for an HQ unit even affect sneaking? I thought it only helped you "Hide." Stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Sneaking/crawling is one of the great mysteries of CM, if you ask me Yes, I've RTFM many times ------------------ War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 I was also under the impression that crawling is the sneakiest way to advance. I very much thought they wouldn't open fire. But I don't think I have ever crawl command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf^ Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 I use crawl when I want to be invisible and sneak when moving in forest and I expect enemy be near. At least crawling has almost always worked as I've wanted. Crawling in wheat or scattered trees is working well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Hi, Phoenix "...That stupid 400+ meter engagement..." You hit a game limitation there... There are ways around this. I don't have much time now, if no one answer this I will post something later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanaka: Hi, Phoenix "...That stupid 400+ meter engagement..." You hit a game limitation there... There are ways around this. I don't have much time now, if no one answer this I will post something later<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I hope you do follow up. I have no idea what you're referring to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolf^: I use crawl when I want to be invisible and sneak when moving in forest and I expect enemy be near. At least crawling has almost always worked as I've wanted. Crawling in wheat or scattered trees is working well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And this is exactly why I was crawling my guys there. I wanted them to stay the hell down and crawl up to the edge of the woods area in preparation to storm a few buildings. I have never had a crawling unit "pop up" and attack on their own. Especially at this range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Phoenix wrote: > I wanted them to stay the hell down and crawl up to the edge of the woods area in preparation to storm a few buildings. In woods, Sneak is the best form of stealthy movement – there is no advantage in hugging the ground as cover is abundant (and crawling through woods is bloody slow). I suggest using crawl (and would only use it myself) when seeking to hug the ground, either to escape from incoming enemy fire while in open ground, or to avoid showing your troops above the level of a wall or a wheat field (and possibly brush too). In other words, hugging the ground is for safety rather than stealth, and it would often be a good idea to end it with a Hide command so that your men don't pop up at the end and give the game away. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Mahone Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix: Ok...can someone explain this?? During a game (PBEM) Im doing I've got some veteran units under C&C of a HQ unit with a +2 stealth rating...all three squads are crawling along through woods. Suddenly, one of the squads stands up, and takes shots at a fleeing enemy unit 400+ meters away. Obviously they have zero impact at this range except to draw the attention of an enemy tank the wheels around and lands an HE round on top of them. from 500 meters. And another Inf unit that opens up on them. While I realize that "stuff happens", isn't this a bit odd? Veteran units, +2 stealth, crawling so as to be unseen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sorry Phoenix, I'd have to see it to believe it. Not that I don't believe it happened, (the 400m attack for no reason that is) I'd just still have to see it. Perhaps they reached the end of their crawl command and you did not have them set to "hide". By the way, what version where you running? In my experiences crawling has always been stealthy. For example, an enemy unit was in a small pile of rubble last night. One of my squads started tearing them up about 80m away. The enemy started to crawl back and then I lost sight of them. At the next turn the unit popped up at the far end of the rubble and began their retreat over open ground to the woods. This tells me that they did not crawl and "hide". They continued to crawl to the other side of the rubble. They became visible again when they jumped up to run. To make sure of this, I traced my squads LOS marker over the entire pile of rubble. It was small so I could see the whole pile and the other side of it (where they began running). This was while running beta build 24. So to answer the question I say crawling IS stealthy. See for yourself. Take a support unit (mortar, or machine gun). Walk him through the woods (without an HQ for stealth) and stop him at the edge before the open ground. With the enemy about 150m away facing those woods they will open fire before he stops. Try the same thing with crawling when you get close to the edge and you wont be seen. Oh, and don't forget to hide at the end! -Head ------------------ "No man ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -General George S. Patton, Jr. [This message has been edited by Head Mahone (edited 01-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 I'm sorry Phoenix, I'd have to see it to believe it. Not that I don't believe it happened, (the 400m attack for no reason that is) I'd just still have to see it. Perhaps they reached the end of their crawl command and you did not have them set to "hide". By the way, what version where you running? It happened. Believe me. And they were in the MIDDLE of their crawling pattern. Still had a good 20 meters to go. I watched it over and over again. Maybe I'll watch it again tonight. If I can stand it!! Im using the latest Beta. 24. So to answer the question I say crawling IS stealthy. See for yourself. I don't disagree with you at all. In the past that has always been my experience. Until this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 Head, here's a link to a screenshot of what happened. As you can see the unit is merrily crawling away and the red line is indicating they have targeted the hapless fleeing squad that is 401 meters away. Right after this they stand up and start shooting. Then all hell breaks loose because of it. Crawling Prior to this they had been happily crawling along for a good 20 meters. After they get off some shots at those guys, they go back to crawling towards their final destination. [This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte99 Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 OT, but that grass you're using: what mod? I can see that grid pattern might really help judge elevation... Too bad about those guys rising for a 400-meter snap shot though ------------------ "Arms are my ornaments, warfare my repose." - Don Quixote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 The grass is one of the "grid" styled grasses that's out there. Get it at http://combathq.thegamers.net/mods/grid.asp I don't leave home without it! [This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 Phoenix "...they were in the MIDDLE of their crawling pattern. Still had a good 20 meters to go. " hmmm... very strange. No offense, but are you sure that your order wasn't short by that 20m, there is no way to see if you gave the right order only by watching the replay movie, you will have to load the auto-save and see if you gave the orders correctly. Tanaka "You hit a game limitation there..." I was thinking that your units completed the move, went into hide and then pop up to fire at a 400m target... The same TacAi that does a very good job ignoring your orders to hide when an enemy appears at 20m in the woods, does a bad job in a situation like this: A veteran squad is hiding in the woods, 3 enemy squads become visible at 300m in scattered trees. What does this Veteran squad, it opens fire on one of them, exposing him self in a 3 to 1 situation and with a very slim probability of hitting or damaging his target... I'm no professional soldier but, I wouldn't do that, I can't see a veteran sergeant give that order either... The way around this is with the ambush command, but be careful, there is some into this too...ut be careful, there is some into this too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Mahone Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix: [ Prior to this they had been happily crawling along for a good 20 meters. After they get off some shots at those guys, they go back to crawling towards their final destination. [This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-02-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hell, I can't explain it. I wish you had your crawl command markers showing on a different screen shot, but I still can't explain it. I've never seen, experienced, or heard anything like this until now. -Head ------------------ "No man ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -General George S. Patton, Jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 hmmm... very strange. No offense, but are you sure that your order wasn't short by that 20m, Very sure. And, as I noted above, after they took some shots and got fired on they went back on their merry way following the original path. That is until they got whacked by the Sherman then got up and ran. there is no way to see if you gave the right order only by watching the replay movie, you will have to load the auto-save and see if you gave the orders correctly. No offense, but I know what the hell orders I gave them. If I can find the order file I can take a screen shot of that since you seem to think I'm making this up simply for the sake of argument. I was thinking that your units completed the move, went into hide and then pop up to fire at a 400m target... No, the move was NOT completed. They were ordered to crawl a bit past the point you see, then turn right and keep crawling, and then hide. All three units and the HQ had the same orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 In answer to the original question crawling is not stealthy. Try a hotseat game to see for yourself the spotting compared to 'Sneak'. Crawl can be useful for short distances behind a wall, rubble or in a building from my experience but it is slow and tiring. I have never seen a unit with a 'Crawl' order pause in the middle to fire, let alone do so at 400m, what your describing sounds unreal. From your screenshot they are too close to the woods edge already, they would be better off farther back and still have LOS, where are they crawling to after that? And yes I would have used Sneak instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 I have never seen a unit with a 'Crawl' order pause in the middle to fire, let alone do so at 400m, what your describing sounds unreal. I hear ya. I've never seen it either. That's why I was so shocked when it happened. I can post more screen shots tonight. From your screenshot they are too close to the woods edge already, they would be better off farther back and still have LOS, Not sure what you mean by that. Too close? Too close for what? where are they crawling to after that? And yes I would have used Sneak instead. As I stated above, they were to crawl another few meters and turn right to go to the woods edge on the right. Which is exactly what they they did afterwards getting off a few rounds at those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From your screenshot they are too close to the woods edge already, they would be better off farther back and still have LOS, Not sure what you mean by that. Too close? Too close for what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just that the closer you are to the woods edge the easier you will be spotted. From your screenshot the ideal position for your squad, IMO, would have been just below the ridge in front of the HQ. The way LOS/LOF works in CM a squad there would be very secure from direct HE fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 Heh, well, considering as how I never expected them to STAND UP and shoot at that fleeing squad 400 meters away I didn't think I had to worry about a Sherman spotting them from farther than that and suddenly unloading on them. Sorry, but I don't see where I made an error here. Not in the least bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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