Use those crews

[Treeburst155]

Can anybody tell me just how much vehicle crews are worth to the enemy if they become casualties? I've always heard they are costly to lose, but never exactly HOW costly.

Thanks!

Treeburst155 out.

[Redwolf]

6 points regular, 8 veteran. All crew members; tanks, mortars, jeeps, guns, whatever.

For fun, compute what the loss of a 81mm mortar and capture of the full crew does.

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

your crews will pay the piper...

[hansfritz]

Maybe the writers of the new C.M.game should make the points value's of crews even higher to discourage Gamey Bastards like me from using them offensivly. But maybe I'll just consentrate on hunting down enemy crews then instead.Oh dear, anyone know any cures for beeing a gamey bastard.

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

6 points regular, 8 veteran. All crew members; tanks, mortars, jeeps, guns, whatever...

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

Are you sure of those points ? How did you find that ?

Because, in my experience, I'm under the impression that a crew could represent up to 50% of the points of the AFV/Gun/mortar (it's a % not a fix value)

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanaka:

Are you sure of those points ? How did you find that ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted the procedure to calculate individual unit worth's several times, please see the archives. They are threads about the exact way to compute victory levels.

The bootstrapping point is that if you have a neutral flag at the end of the game, you can break down points to these five categories:

- flags neutral

- flags player 1

- flags player 2

- damage points player 1

- damage points player 2

[ 09-23-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[SurlyBen]

I'm with redwolf on this one. The FAQ has links to threads on how scoring is calculated... If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post a couple of formulas you can use to calculate the score at the end of the game. You can use this to figure out how much things like crews are worth (and how much spotters are worth, etc...)

I don't see the use of crews as gamey at all. They have horrible spotting ability, low firepower, often low morale and ammo, and each one killed is worth double the points of a regular rifleman. Plus they seem to surrender more often than other units (which doubles the points again.) Anyone who uses them as combat units is going to find that he pays a realistically high price.

to answer the 81mm mortar question: loss of a regular 81mm mortar and capture of the entire crew gets you 99 points, or about the same as killing StuG, or wiping out an entire platoon of infantry. If you kill the crew instead of capture, it goes down to 63 points.

Surlyben

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SurlyBen:

...If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post a couple of formulas you can use to calculate the score at the end of the game...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that would be nice, thanks in advance...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...loss of a regular 81mm mortar and capture of the entire crew gets you 99 pointsG... If you kill the crew instead of capture, it goes down to 63 points...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

99 pts ?!? 63 pts ?!? These are not he same points we get at the end of the battle, aren't they ? The points at the end go from 0 to 100 ... I think if I see your formula I will understand much better

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :hansfritz

...But maybe I'll just consentrate on hunting down enemy crews then instead...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your logic betrays me, even with the current points system, it is a very profitable activity to "hunt" crews, (in accordance to my calculations they cost up to 50% of the all vehicle). So I do advice you to go after bailing crews, specially if it is a crew of an expensive Tank.

This activity of hunting crews is not atoll "gamey",if you can kill that Tiger ace without him being inside his Tiger that is for sure easier then wait for him to go back to another Tiger...

Good tank/weapon crews take time and resources to train, on the other hand, machines are almost certain made in factories at production lines, good crews/teams aren't...

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife:

your crews will pay the piper...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A solo piper playing "Flowers of the Forest" would be more appropriate.

You forgot that a bagpipe grog is among you...

The second 4/4 march is Crags of Tumbledown MOuntain - written after the Falklands war of 1982.

[SurlyBen]

Tanaka: here are my formulas. As far as algebraic conventions go, you should note that when two letters appear side by side (for example "pa" ) the intention is that they be read as a single variable (as opposed to multiplying variable "p" and variable "a"). (I wrote this late at night last winter, and I am too lazy to change it now )

"score" is used to describe your score (what you see on the aar screen)

"point(s)" is used to descibe how much an item is worth as a casualty. Generally an item is worth its purchase cost. Points are related to score as shown below.

pa = total points of allied casualties (allies captured count double their casualty value)

pg = total points of german casualties (germans captured count double their casualty value)

f = total value of flags

fa = point value of flags controlled by allies

fg = point value of flags controlled by germans

a = allied score

g = german score

Flags are worth 300 points for the big ones, and 100 for the small ones.

All units are worth their cost in points(that is, if you only kill a regular sherman, pa will be 115 ), with the exception of arty spotters, which are worth 30 points, and possibly infantry casualties, which I haven't tested for exact values. That is, infantry may have a standard per casualty value (probably around 2 or 3 points) or it may vary by unit type. Captured units are worth double points.

For a less mathy version see this thread(link stolen from the FAQ)

The way I figured this out was by setting up a shooting range style scenario. One side killed a bunch of ammoless tanks the other side held a flag (which is worth a known amount of points) This gave me a score and told me approximately how much a tank plus any crew that got killed was worth. Invariably that value was always a bit more than the purchase value of the tank. How much more depended on the number of crew that escaped... I also did some similar tests with infantry. I came up with a number that was around 3 points per soldier (the number was approximate because the final score is rounded off by the game. You never see a score of)

Somewhere ( I really wish I knew where, probably in one of those discussions about reducing the gamey use of crews that used to go on before the last couple of patches) I read that killed crews are worth twice the points. This matched my tests well enough that I figured I knew how scoring worked well enough to make long rambling posts about it here at the BTS board. I assume that others who have come to the same conclusions have a similar experience

The above formulas should be good enough to give you fairly accurate ballpark estimates about your score. Since that's all I wanted I never bothered to figure out if zooks, MGs, and Flamethrowers, and sharpshooters were worth their cost or a standard infantry cost (and for that matter, I never figured out if there was a standard infantry cost or if a single inf casualty was worth a fraction of the cost of a squad...but in the case of pretty much all inf squads, three points a man is close enough for a ballpark estimate)

If you want to test it, all you have to do is count up the points for casualties and flags controlled for both sides at the end of your next game, and plug em in. The answer should be close to the final score.

Surlyben

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: SurlyBen ]

[Redwolf]

This is a better thread with more complete information on how to test what a specific unit is worth:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=019346

[SurlyBen]

I knew I'd been through this discussion before... heck, I've even asked all the same questions and had them answered before... Thanks for the link.

Surlyben

[Tanaka]

SurlyBen and redwolf

A very simple and nice formula, now I fully understand your previews statements... Much more simple and condensate then the calculations I was doing (using the moral loss and the flag points).

Once again thanks

[Farnz]

I just leave my crews to their own devices. I figure they're not really under C&C.

[Lars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hansfritz:

Maybe the writers of the new C.M.game should make the points value's of crews even higher to discourage Gamey Bastards like me from using them offensivly. But maybe I'll just consentrate on hunting down enemy crews then instead.Oh dear, anyone know any cures for beeing a gamey bastard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Play Operations instead of Scenarios. You won’t be using your crews for scouting then!

[Louie the Toad]

When it comes to points I would rather loose a couple of crew members scouting forward than have my following tank get kayoed in an ambush that they could have uncovered.

Ok, don't you suppose there could, would be an esprit' de corps (spelling?) of the tank platoon or squadron? They are part of a larger group, not an isolated unit. If a crew is on foot and in somewhat good morale might they not be willing and be ordered to sneak forward so their buddies dont run into a problem.

Somehow I can't picture the crew of a knocked out tank under Rommel's command running to the rear, past the rest of the squadron, ignoring the tank leader and not telling their comrades what was up ahead and leaving the rest of the tank commanders to figure it out for themselves.

Tell me, would you do that? Would you want your comrades to do that to you?

Questioning Toad

I would like to hear from some tankers first hand.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

When it comes to points I would rather loose a couple of crew members scouting forward than have my following tank get kayoed in an ambush that they could have uncovered.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends. A six-men crew from a 81mm mtr is a capable fighting and spotting force.

The blind and helpless six-men crew from a K.O.ed SP gun may as well be sacrifized for no value if it didn't spot the Hummel that got them and then your tank.

[ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

[QB]...Somehow I can't picture the crew of a knocked out tank under Rommel's command running to the rear, past the rest of the squadron, ignoring the tank leader and not telling their comrades what was up ahead and leaving the rest of the tank commanders to figure it out for themselves...[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:eek:

Hmm..lets see... DAK veteran crew abandon tank... Crew ordered to walk on the hammada to check what actually lies ahead, meanwhile the armor stays behind

Lets try another aproach... Caen, SS Panzer Div Tank crew... Tank abandoned... Crew ordered to check for the enemy in the bocage ahead...

(CO) - go don't wary, we will stay BEHIND you (at a safe distance), just make sure when you die, scream out loud what kind of enemy is killing you :eek:

hmm..I don't know, I don't know...

[ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]

[Louie the Toad]

Redwolf and Tananka,

Are you guys tankers? As I said, lets hear from some vets. By the way, my scouts actually sneak and crawl in order to scout. They seldom get shot at.

Sneaky Toad.

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louie the Toad:Redwolf and Tananka,

Are you guys tankers? As I said, lets hear from some vets.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vets !?!?... Vets from what ? Some tanker who has been under Rommel's orders (you are kidding)? ... Or any tanker will do ? Because if any will do, let's see...

In what part of a cavalry training comes, "scout by foot" after seeing one of your comrades burned alive by an RPG7 shot ?... A cavalry man is not a foot soldier, inside a M60 there is a TEAM (crew&tank), if one brakes, the machine brakes. After the machine brakes, it needs a new member in order to put the TEAM moving again... Machines can be replaced fast, a good crew takes time to re-make...

I just ask you to bring forward that "Vet" of yours that will state that in his cavalry training he was taught to scout enemy positions after is TEAM is some how diminished (Tank or crewman loss).

Thanks in advance

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> By the way, my scouts actually sneak and crawl in order to scout. They seldom get shot at.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back to CM... Sharpshooters excel in this role, they have an high cover bonus, so they can see and not be seen. (don't order them to fire)

[ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]

[Louie the Toad]

Tananka,

Maybe you have uncovered a new combined arms configuration. Tanks with sharpshooter scouts. The last scenario I played using sharpshooters had 1 within 70 meters of the enemy only with a brush concealment. He had crawled thru brush and briefly over open ground and gave me very good information on enemy activities. He never was discovered, even after taking out an enemy field gun.

I still think it would be good to hear from some veteran tankers, regardless of age, to hear from them what they think or did about crews scouting forward. What is in the manual and what actually happens are not always the same as you know. And you probably forgot that Cavalry, no matter when in history, at times had to fight as infantry. The truth is better than speculation.

Curious Toad.

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

...And you probably forgot that Cavalry, no matter when in history, at times had to fight as infantry.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:confused:

Hmm... There are no horses in a modern Cavalry unit.. The AFV history is not that old you know ?!

Old countries with an history of a few centuries (100 years is sufficient) had in the past "true" Cavalry units (with real horses), when the AFV was "invented" this units slowly started to change the kind of "horses" they rode, some even changed to "Air horses"... I see that you are from Minnesota (USA), in your country, I think you have famous Cavalry units that don't use the horse atoll (ok for parades maybe).

In resume the armored army branch of these old little countries still is called Cavalry... Why, perhaps they are proud/respect the past, or just for history sake, who knows

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

... The truth is better than speculation.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fully agree with you on this...

If I speculate, could you be kind to point out, once again, thanks in advance.

One other thing... I see by your CM related observations (tanks+sharpshooter & scout crews) that in a CM battle we use armor in a very different role. So, there is no way a tactic that I use will serve you (the other way around is also true), no point in digging here, I think.