infantry vs. x2 (300 per cent) armour attack and anti tank force option?

[catnip]

I don't think american airborne would work very well. First the 57mm AT gun doesn't have tungsten ammo and the bazooka gets spotted too easily. With Vet piats I can usually fire 2 to 4 shots before they die.

[Les Gray]

When you say recommended attacker/defender ratio, are you saying the 3-1 ratio that conventional wisdom says you need to take a well defended position?

I'm asking only because a 200% bonus to th3e attacker gives the attaker 4.5-1 advantage, which I think is why you're having lots of trouble. 100% bonus gives the proper 3-1 advantage.

Les

[Mr. Johnson--]

I thought the proper ratio was 4 to 1. Maybe thats just an excuse attackers use to avoid fights.

[Jarmo]

The ratio against +200% assault is 6 to 1.

Assault gives the AI double your points and +200% triples it.

I wounder if this'd be tougher or easier against a plain infantry force or combined arms.

I think I'll try it again today with british paras.

[Jarmo]

Tried with paras. I was thrown out of the map.

My main AT defenses were mines. Found out that after the AI sees the minefield, it sees it perfectly. If you've left a millimeter between two fields AI sees the opening and drives her tanks through it.

[kunstler]

My experience was similiar.

I tried the Ameri paratroopers and got annihilated. The ai zeroed in on the zooks and blasted them to pieces, then the King Tigers and 105 stugs shelled the bejeesuz out of the infantry. The 57mm anti tank guns knocked out a halftrack or two and only 2 or 3 tanks wandered into the minefields. Hardly hurt any axis troops at all.

Catnip seems to have a handle on piat defenses, tho. So it's possible. The spotting thing may make all the difference. I still love going for anti tank guns tho. =)

I screwed up on the odds evaluation. 2000 points for defender vs. 10500 points attacker. Hefty odds.

Wonder if any of the top notch virtual generals here who could fend off a human attack with those kinds of insane odds?

I usually just surrender after my artillery is gone and the guns have been knocked out. (challenge was to REPEL the attack, as in a 'hold the pass or the whole army is screwed' situation) but I'll have to see what happens victory point wise if I pull what's left out of harms way.

kunstler

[Mr. Johnson--]

I made an operation where one company of Tigers guarding a strongpoint have to hold off almost a totally maxed out force of British tanks and infantry. And playing against the AI you can hold them off, but no way in hell could you hold of a human with all of those tanks.

[catnip]

Jarmo, I tested a double row of AT mines against the AI only to find out that out of 20 tanks, only 3 died and 5 were immobolized.

Sadly, the AI drives any sized tank through the cracks.

The AP mines work better and cause casualties. I am going to try barbed wire, Sharpshooters(to button tanks), 140mm VT, TRPs along the barbed wire line, and an army of Vet Piats(the only way to go).

This time I want to stop the infantry at the line with arty/wire and hold my fire until the first tank enters the town. The nice thing about the AI is it doesn't unbutton the tank after your sharpshooter hits it. Those buttoned tanks are easy targets once they get into town.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:

Jarmo, I tested a double row of AT mines against the AI only to find out that out of 20 tanks, only 3 died and 5 were immobolized.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Close to that for me too. 10 dead or immobilized I think. I did get a draw BTW. I think I'll try something like that again. Only without cracks this time.

[Mr. Johnson--]

BTW it helps if you make the attack High quality, a few less tanks to engage.

[killmore]

German infantry vs Allied tanks was easy. (against AI)

Buy lots of Puppchens.

Buy couple of Inf guns.

Buy lots of LMG (at 9 pts each it you can get 11 of them for the price of 1 Inf platoon)

have many defense lines...

[Redwolf]

I tried Volkssturm as defender against:

- 3x Churchill VIII

- 5x (or so) M8 HMC

- 2x Priest

- 2x Wasp

- 2x M3A1

- 2x Jackson

- British VT Arty

- 240mm U.S. Arty

- biggest British arty

- 2x British airborne company (10-man squads)

== about 3000 points, all regular

I tried various 1000 point Volkssturm setups, most successful was one 1 Company, 1 Platoon (that includes 16 Schrecks), 2 HMGs, no Sharpshooters and about 300 points in mines and barbed wire. All green forces.

After an initial failure, I now got two minor victorys (after autosurrender).

The key for the Volkssturm without Guns, Vehicles and Arty is to keep your infantry in places where they cannot be hit from direct fire by the tanks AT ALL and where approaching infantry is very near when coming into LOS.

I arranged the force on reverese slopes so that in front LOS is limited by the slope and so that the opposite sides have a friendly unit covering the place against tanks. That is very difficult, it turned out that you will always forget to cover one place and/or that the attackers frees a place and then can place his tanks there.

Otherwise, I placed fortifications so that bared wire is directly on the slopes in LOS of my infantry, AP mine cover approach areas out of LOS and AT mines are placed in front of everything and on spots that a tank might use to shoot into my infantry.

It was interesting to see that the danger from the various vehicles was revered when compared to a normal defense with guns and tanks.

The Churchills, the nightmare of 50 and 75mm AT gun defenses, always drive on the mines as the AI leads with them. Or they get eaten by the Panzerschrecks, as they are too slow. The Priests, which in the usual attack have few changes to reach battle, were devastating as the AI kept them well back until trouble was resolved. The Jacksons are bad as well, as they have a 90mm gun in a fast turret. The M8 HMC, usually the only cheap HE-intensive vehicle to survive the gunfest *due to numbers), are only so-so. While some of them survived, there were so few canals for shots on my troops that every shot should be the highest blast value you can get. "Only" a 75mm gun in one of these few spots is a waste. Compared to what the Priests and Jacksons did, the M8 HMC fire was rather amusing and you were glad that no real tank took the position.

The barbed wire in front of my tropps worked very well when the distance was right, but one time I placed it in front of houses and the attacker just shot from the houses :-/ Don't do that. Overall, a training opportunity on its own, more so than mines.

Trying to move Green Volkssturm while any enemy unit is in LOS is futile. I have not been able to use any reserve, as they would have to cross fields of fire from tanks far away, which would usually fall to guns, but dominated the free places in their absense.

HMGs didn't work out too well. I had to avoid any LOS of more than 80 meters, so the infantry would be better anyway. I chose two HMGs to look from the extreme right and left side into my own setup area, to shoot when enemy infantry broke through. That got a lot of attackers on the run and it saved my Panzerschrecks in the victory flag area, which got a few AFV that pushed towards the flags, usually Wasps or Halftracks.

Overall, this kind of defense places the highest demands on setup. In every game, I had one platoon useless and idle (but unable to move), one platoon shot to pieces by tanks coming into LOS from some obscure place and one platoon facing units in expected approach paths and distances, but too many from several directions so that it got reduced in crossfire. As the player, you don't to do much after setup. You don't need to unhide, as the green troops get spotted or open fire sonner than you wish anyway. You have no arty or vehicles. As for reserves, I just had the choice when I have them shot in the terrain I defended, strengthening the forward lines was better in that terrain.

The AI did some thing bad, like using not enough infantry cover for the tanks, driving into minefields and it usually uses just one of their artillery modules. But overall I was surprised that the AI was not that bad. The AI is very good in finding those few terrain spots that offer LOS to my troops, maybe more so that a human attacker would be. It also concentrated infantry in its usual habit, but since I had no artillery or mortars it was a pure advantage. The defenders at the point of impact would be under heavy fire from many directions from the start of a firefight, especially since the tanks from the other side would support them at the right time.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[dumrox]

I just finished a 2000pt defense as Allies against +200 Combined Arms Axis. Results:

Axis Attacker

742 casualites (179 KIA)

3 mortars destroyed

12 vehicles knocked out

Men OK: 905

Score: 24

Allied Defender

105 casualties (26 KIA)

5 guns destroyed

1 vehicle knocked out

Men OK: 206

Score 71

Allied Major Victory

There was an unbelievable amount of German infantry running around. I had something like 7 zook teams, but they were invariably rousted from their hiding places by marauding troops. 1 StugIV was all that fell victim to any bazookas. AT Guns were effective, but the AI was quick to bring arty on them as soon as they opened up. 4 of the 5 lost guns were killed by arty. Only 1 57mm AT gun was knocked out by direct fire. I only had 2 M18's, a Greyhound and 1 Priest for AFV's. My M18's were very effective. I tried to keep them moving at all times. My surviving M18 knocked out 2 panthers, a PzIV and 2 halftracks. My Priest stayed hidden until one side of the map was cleared of enemy armor, at which point I brought it out and began chucking shells into a large clump of woods that was literally crawling with infantry. I had to keep him on Area Target as he was switching targets so frequently in this target rich environment that he was only getting a shot or two off each turn. As it was, the Priest managed to unload all but 4 of his HE load before the game ended. He singlehandedly caused such chaos that he essentially held off what I estimate was 500 troops. Due to fog of war, and the fact that I was Area firing into trees, the AAR credits him with 1 infantry causalty and 1 mortar. After scanning the after battle map, I estimate he caused 100 casualties. My artillery was a big infantry killer, as the AI was clumping hundreds of troops in 2 distinct patches of woods. My fortifications were useless, as the AI didn't go near them. If I were to do this again, I would forego the fortifications and use the extra cash to buy some nice big arty rounds. One more spotter with something like 155's could have probably pushed Axis casualties into the 1000 range.

[Redwolf]

The fortifications only work when buying enough of them, especially barbed wire.

About 1/3 of your points can be spent in fortifications, that will do good in more than few situations. Whether that is worth the points depends on taste and last but not least the opponent force. If he has Churchills and SMG troops he will be very vulnerable to AT mines covering the only routes free of trees and short-range infantry in bared wire 200 meter from rifle and MG infantry is unhealthy, too.

Knowing neither map nor enemy troops, I would probably not buy more than 5-7x barbed wire and 2-3 AT mines.

[Les Gray]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The ratio against +200% assault is 6 to 1.

Assault gives the AI double your points and +200% triples it.

I wounder if this'd be tougher or easier against a plain infantry force or combined arms.

I think I'll try it again today with british paras.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there a point difference when the AI plays as opposed to a human. When I pick assault with a 1000 point QB, I get 1750 points to spend. I actually made my previous calculations using the straight attack numbers. With assault points 200% is 5.25-1 and 100% is 3.5-1

[catnip]

I just did an allied defense of and Axis assault(1500pt with +200 axis bonus) with barbed wire and easily defeated the AI for a final score of 86-14.

I killed 20 vehicles, immobilized 2, and gun damaged 3. The barbed wire worked so well that the attacking infantry didn't even make it to the flag areas. Still, a few tanks made it and claimed two flags.

For this game I bought:

32x barbed wire

30x Reg Piat(at 50m they are as accurate as vets)

20+ sharpshooter (used to pin infantry without giving position away)

5x TRP

2x 140mm VT

Date was march 1945 and map was small. The rest of the settings were default.

If anybody wants to play the savegame files of turn 01 and turn 20, let me know and I'll email them to you.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: catnip ]

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Les Gray:

When I pick assault with a 1000 point QB, I get 1750 points to spend. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duh. I guess it's been changed at some point. I don't play assaults too often from the attacking side...

Cat, drop me a savefile, I guess 15 would be nice. I want to see how you did it.

[Soddball]

If I may offer a suggestion that may have been missed out:

If you leave a gap between two minefields, the AI will drive their tank right through it, yes?

Doesn't this become an ideal point for an ambush by a PIAT or AT gun from the side? That's what I do. Comic fun for all the family - especially when two or three vehicles are trying to get through, and they become trapped because the first one has been knocked out.

[Jarmo]

Tried again, this time with better results.

I made it easier for me by choosing a small map. Then I spent all my fortification points on AT minefields. Using wood patches along the mines, I was able to block almost all of the map. Leaving only two holes, both small tunnels with woods on side. Killzones. Shopped a veteran british paratroop company with 10 Piats, 2 Bazookas and 6 Vickers for extra support.

Catnip, you were right. Piats are better. Zooks get spotted too easy.

For arty, 105 VT spotter and a 4,2" mortar.

105 VT was tremendously effective. I believe most of the infantry casualties were caused by it. 100 shots last a good time.

AI helped by moving most of her infantry through one patch of woods. I was able to hit great infantry concentrations all the time.

AT killzones didn't work as well as I hoped.

One on the side was bypassed completely, so I had to move the men to a new location. This was costly under fire.

The second one worked in theory. Plenty of tanks drive through it. I just didn't manage to kill too many (3). I had only 4 piats out there and the gods of war frowned upon me.

The second reason the fields didn't work, was because AI had pioneers, and cleared one field driving lots of tanks through it.

AT mines themselves worked beautifully. This time I made sure the fields overlapped, so the bastard AI couldn't go through the cracks. About 15 AFVs killed or immobilized. Not bad for under 400 points.

Behind the killzones was the town. My piats over there killed further 4 AFVs.

My three infantry platoons.

The first one was by the southern killzone that was bypassed, and in the end didn't really cause much of anything.

The second one was in the woods near the second killzone. They held on against the shell shocked infantry until they ran out of ammo. Then were overrun. Caused over 50 casualties, but the important thing is that they gave the piats time to operate by holding off the attacking infantry.

The third one was in the town. They managed to hang in until endgame.

Timeline.

Turn 10, not much happening.

Turn 20, few tanks in mines, lots of casualties to attacker by arty. Some infantry is engagin my killzone defenders. My own casualties minimal.

Turn 25. My "main" killzone collapses, the fight is in town.

Turn 30. My village defenders are barely alive. I have not much anything left besides them.

Had it lasted a bit longer I couldn't have held the village. Even as it was, AI had all the flags in the village.

Results:

Allied total victory (78-15)

Allies

115 casualties

2 mortars KO

69 men ok

Axis

728 casualties

2 mortars KO

26 vehicles KO (and 4 more immobilized)

261 men OK.

Happy but not satisfied.

How to make a defense that forces the assaulter to surrender?

[catnip]

Jarmo, those results are impressive! Especially for a 30 turn game. I might try out the 105 VT, especially with all those casualties you caused.

I still need to find a balance between the piats and other infantry so that I have something to stop the enemy with once it gets past the front line. I might try the At mines again too.

[killmore]

I have this game saved - So you can try it yourself from the very begining!

I was german 1000 Inf:

11 Pupchens

4 75 Howitzers

1 150mm Inf gun

SS Inf company Veterans

3 Light Mgs

AI: Assualt + 200% Armour (british)

29 AFVs - mostly Sherman III

Tons of infantry

Some kind of very large caliber Spotters

After 30 turns:

Axis Major Victory

Axis:

65 casualties

12 guns destroyed

Men Ok: 115

Score: 76

Allies:

510 Casualties

27 Vechicles

16 Mortars

Men OK: 210

Score 20

I would have done much better if not for the off-map (rocket?) artilery. The explosions were HUGE!

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killmore:

I have this game saved - So you can try it yourself from the very begining! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's pretty well impressive.

Drop me the file, I want to see your setup.

Would you happen to have the last file too?