TH is Gamey?

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Maybe what is needed is an opponent finder for people who are not interested in power play outside a ladder system?

That would be good. If you could maybe also outline what a reinforced company sized engagement "should" be that's even better for the less grogy of us who are interested.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

That would be good. If you could maybe also outline what a reinforced company sized engagement "should" be that's even better for the less grogy of us who are interested.

Hi Dirtweasle, good idea. I was thinking maybe I could just post some of the battles that were made for Peng Thread™ battles. Sort of like the QB version, just with more thought put into the maps (well... sometimes...) and more believable OOBs (well... sometimes...)

I won't do that here though, much more fun to let people get back to argue about taste and watch that.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[aka_tom_w]

This is still a good idea worth repeating:

Posted earlier by:

"Moriarty

Member posted 03-23-2001 01:28 PM

quote:

Originally posted:

"Most "technicians" refuse to allow computer chosen forces because they already know

exactly which forces give them the greatest advantage when playing any given side,

within a certain pt range (usually 1000 - 2000). Said "technicians" will usually dis-allow

computer force picks under the aegis of the "whoever generates the game could cheat

and pick his own force, while sticking me with the lame computer chosen troopies".

One way to avoid this and save time typing is to do a screenshot of the setup window and send the jpg to your opponent.

Side note: I, too, have no problem with letting the AI do the unit selections."

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by yobobo@tournamenthouse:

Here is the deal in my mind about the gamey issue.

Most players don't know what the he|| it means. New players don't have a clue, and vets of the game are mostly confused by the small print. Some say 2 jeeps in a QB is gamey. Others say they have never seen a KT in a game yet and are proud of it! What is that? I mean come on, this is nuts. I played a few players from other ladders. I have also played great players form outside TH in QB games. The first bought 4 Jumbos, the second only bought one, but yes he did buy the beast so is that gamey? I don't think so, or really care. I have also played strict none gamey rules with the above and then watched crews rushing a flag. Again do not care as we did not stipulate this before the game. This gamey thing has such a fine line. I hear TH has a few gamey players? Well when you play a QB with someone make sure you know and accept all the params in the game. Very simple I think?

If you don't like seeing 2 jeeps in a QB please say so then and there before whining in here. There are many historical players at TH, GravesRegistration ranked #4 at TH will only play historical, and a great player at that. Most of my PBM opponents only play historical, or have certain params set BEFORE we play. It is that simple I think? Figure the params out before you play. No big deal. But if you get your ass whooped, and you will by the top players, don't cry about it after because you did not help set the params. If you think you walked into a trap then you are the only one to blame. TCP/IP games are fast in setting up and many things can slip by. With the soon to be new chat at TH, will also come game room info popup parameters. http://tournamenthouse.com/CM/CMnewsoon.htm This will help in making sure everything is clear BEFORE the game starts.

Sorry, had to rant and with 1500+ games played at TH's CM site and over 600 members you can not tell me they are all gamey.

Yo

TournamentHouse.com

Game Ranking Ladder

Come For The Carnage, Stay For The Stats!

http://www.tournamenthouse.com/CM/

A nice post, that had absolutely nothing to do with gaminess. I don't understand the logic of people accused of being "gamey". They'll say "Well I can buy what I want" or whatever. And thats fine. They can buy what they want. But does that mean they're not being irrealistic, they're not cherry picking, and, depending on your definition, not being gamey? With that logic.. I could shoot someone in the face, and someone would say "you're a murderer!" "but! I had a gun. the gun had bullets. nothing stopped me from shooting him in the face!".. Does that mean that a person isn't a murderer? of course not. Was it in his ability to kill someone? sure. Is that wrong? Up to you. In other words.. If someone buys 10 king tigers, he is, at the very least, cherry picking. Now.. whether or not you want to say thats bad is irrelevant to whether or not its cherry picking. Sure, people can agree upon rules beforehand. And I prefer that way. Does that mean that if no one agrees to a rule, and picks 10 king tigers, hes not cherry picking? Of course not. Sure, there are ways of getting around 'gamey' apponents, if you want. But that doesn't change the fact that they're being gamey. And.. if a person plays a game, doesn't declare any rules, and faces a 'gamey' opponent, then by all means, it was that persons own fault. But it doesn't suddenly make what the other guy does not gamey.

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by Windopaene:

Well I think one "solution" really needs to come from BTS. Two changes that would solve a lot of these problems.

1) Include the setup parameters as part of the encrypted game file that gets sent at the start of the game, and display it to the "player 2" who gets the file.

2) Come up with some way of preventing the "player 1" from cheating with a computer buy situation by looking at the map/opponents forces before sending it. I would think this would require the "player 2"'s computer to actually generate the map and his picks, or at least not show player 2 what the map is, nor what forces he will get, but just to enter a password. After this gets sent back to player 1 then the map gets generated, along with both sides units...

Or simply display some of the basic game parameters on connection - or on demand, through a hotkey.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Col_Deadmarsh - where you are talking out of your rear-end is when you insist on calling people who don't like ahistorical play (for want of a better word) 'grog's. I have played a number of people who want to play with some historical realism, who don't play to win, and who are not grogs. Where is your proof for your assertion that only grogs dislike that sort of play? Let's hear it.

Huh? What does this have to do with anything? I was generalizing for Christ's sake. Let's stay on topic.

The rest of your ramblings about how to take out Übertanks is about as wide off the mark as my attempts at making a joke about the Queen at a recent reception in the House of Commons...

I can't wait to hear your reasons why. You are going to give me reasons, aren't you? I thought I made some pretty good arguments so why don't you tell me why you think I'm wrong.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

I can't wait to hear your reasons why. You are going to give me reasons, aren't you? I thought I made some pretty good arguments so why don't you tell me why you think I'm wrong.

Perfectly good suggestions - but as I said, they don't help eliminating the basic problem that I simply don't feel like facing a mix of Übertanks and SMG/Fallshirmjaeger squads in all my PBEMs? Therefore besides the point.

I don't feel superior for not wanting to play like this, and I certainly don't want to force anyone into playing my way, but I am also slightly sick of these generalisations, that BTW seem to come from the Powerplayers all the time, as to how bad my taste in playing is.

You have yours, I have mine, I am quite certain we will never meet in a PBEM, so what's the problem? It has nothing to do with taste, superior attitude or inferiority complexes, it is all a question of taste - as in: mine is different than yours.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Moriarty]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Maybe what is needed is an opponent finder for people who are not interested in power play outside a ladder system?

Hmm, now there is an idea for Der Kessel that we should debate...

Outstanding idea, Germanboy.

(Nice work at Der Kessel, too)

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"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change." -- Oddball

"Crap." -- Moriarty

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Moriarty:

Outstanding idea, Germanboy.

(Nice work at Der Kessel, too)

Thanks - I am thinking of a simple email list. No ranking, nothing. Should do it. Also a way to gauge how much demand there is. And, even more importantly, less people wandering randomly into the Peng Thread thinking it is an opponent finder...

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Darstand]

I have been playing at TH ladder. At first it was enjoyable, but then as time wore on I grown tired of a few things.

I grown tired having to worry about WHAT I BUY, instead of how good my tactics are. It is as simple as that. I have yet to decide whether to give up on TH ladder, or contine to play but with only very carfully constructed peramiters (that kinda sucks)

One thing I know That there will always be people who try to streach a system to its limits looking for for an advantage. The only cure is not to play them. I think you will find me in the chat room of CMHQ these days than that of TH.

On a side note I think one of the best ways to run a tournment would be to have a referee who hands out Tournment saved maps and forces to the contestants. The forces then would be garrenteed to be more TOE accurate.

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Andreas, I would be interested in a email list for opponent finding, for games where the opponents agree to choose interesting, not "best" forces. Where "interesting" would often be a historically imaginable or real force to study it.

Battles should be reported to the list at least with the units chosen and some findings, so that other people on the list gain knowledge about what unit to choose when. Without that, I fear people will not be on a sufficient equal level with their knowledge of imaginable forces.

A full AAR should probably be pretty common.

[This posting doesn't mean there is something wrong with simple ladder systems. Both have their place]

Martin

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by MantaRay:

The truth is that makes the Axis player not have 2 of his best strengths, Better Armor, and surprise.

No, no.... it's Fear, surprise and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... or am I getting confused with something else?

Regards

Jim R.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

It is alwayes nice to see a debate enlivened by someone coming along with a grudge, pulling some stuff out of his rear-end and proclaiming it to be the truth with no back-up whatsoever. You'll go far.

I think we can define Germanboy as a grog... would everyone agree?

Regards

Jim R.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

would everyone agree?

No, I don't. Germanboy is a 'Pooler'

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

No, I don't. Germanboy is a 'Pooler'

A drooler you say?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Thanks - I am thinking of a simple email list. No ranking, nothing. Should do it. Also a way to gauge how much demand there is. And, even more importantly, less people wandering randomly into the Peng Thread thinking it is an opponent finder...

I know this is going to sound like I have some sort of personal grudge against Germanboy (which I don't) and I DO like your idea of the e-mail list but your above quote regarding the Peng Thread makes it sound very elitist and only available to those that have proven themselves worthy by some sort of arcane initiation rite or possibly by some birthrite. That's just my take on it & you can obviously agree or disagree as you see fit but I think it's important to have the thread seen as being accessable (& "postable") to all with the only warning being that you'd better have a bloody thick skin!

Regards

Jim R.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

I know this is going to sound like I have some sort of personal grudge against Germanboy (which I don't) and I DO like your idea of the e-mail list but your above quote regarding the Peng Thread makes it sound very elitist and only available to those that have proven themselves worthy by some sort of arcane initiation rite or possibly by some birthrite. That's just my take on it & you can obviously agree or disagree as you see fit but I think it's important to have the thread seen as being accessable (& "postable") to all with the only warning being that you'd better have a bloody thick skin!

Regards

Jim R.

You misunderstand him. We get many people that wander into the Peng thread thinking its some kind of opponent finder (well, it is, but there are rules). What Germanboy is saying is that the e-mail list would cut down on the people that wander into the Peng thread that haven't a clue what that thread is about

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

*snip*I think it's important to have the thread seen as being accessable (& "postable") to all with the only warning being that you'd better have a bloody thick skin!

I totally agree, and therein lies the rub. You should not be caught between the rock (powerplay on ladders) and the hard place (needing a very thick skin and good vocabulary for abuse to get a game on the Peng Thread) to find a good game, if you are not into powerplay.

Is the Peng Thread elitist? Well, if you define random abuse and the need to tolerate the likes of Joe Shaw as markers of an elite you are of course right.

Now, to answer your previous inquiry, am I a Grognard? Maybe, but WTF has that got to do with it, if you excuse my French. Do Grognards have less of a right to an enjoyable game than those who like to see things go 'boom' and can only win with Übertanks and SMG squads, those who are feel the need to win every single gamefor an enjoyable experience? What on earth is wrong with that? The powerplayers insist on their game, I do insist on mine. Shurely if they have the right to do so, so have I. That is why Col_Deadmarsh had me in a minor fit. His line that only Grognards complain about gamey play is not only wrong, but also totally pointless, unless he means to say that because they are Grognards they are not worth listening to.

Well and here's news to you all - if it wasn't for the Grognards, you could all be playing Sudden Strike. Or do you think that by those liberal definitions that even make me a Grognard, Steve and Charles are not Grognards? Or that without the free feedback on the game given by Grognards, and the Grognard beta testers the game would be the same quality as it is now?

Well do you? Because if you do, it is time to get real folks and think about what is happening with the development of this game. Basically it is done by a bunch of Grognards (by the definitions thrown around here) for the enjoyment of the power-players who then indulge in putting down those who gave them the game in the first place.

Have a nice day all.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Well and here's news to you all - if it wasn't for the Grognards, you could all be playing Sudden Strike. Or do you think that by those liberal definitions that even make me a Grognard, Steve and Charles are not Grognards? Or that without the free feedback on the game given by Grognards, and the Grognard beta testers the game would be the same quality as it is now?

Well do you? Because if you do, it is time to get real folks and think about what is happening with the development of this game. Basically it is done by a bunch of Grognards (by the definitions thrown around here) for the enjoyment of the power-players who then indulge in putting down those who gave them the game in the first place.

Have a nice day all.

Hmmm... didn't mean to get your back up. I personally don't have a problem whatsoever with so called "grognards" and I completely agree that if it wasn't for these nefarious people the game would be alot worse for it. I simply posted that facecious comment about you being a grog because it kinda suits my perhaps warped sense of humour, but it was always meant as a joke and not meant to be derisive in any way. Perhaps I should use smilies in future but I believe Peng goers are not huge fans of these cartoonettes.

Regards

Jim R.

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After many years of trying to find steady work, I finally got a

job as a historian, until I realized there was no future in it.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

*snip*t was always meant as a joke and not meant to be derisive in any way. Perhaps I should use smilies in future but I believe Peng goers are not huge fans of these cartoonettes.

Nah, leave off the smilies - I know you were joking, and did not see it as derisive. What gets my back up (and still does) is the initial post by Col_Deadmarsh. I just felt this had to be said, and this seemed like a good place for it. Sorry if you think it was you who triggered it.

Now go and get Glantz. The best thing Clarke ever published were his diaries

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

(in response to Germanboy)

wOOt !!!!!!!!!

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Nah, leave off the smilies - I know you were joking, and did not see it as derisive. What gets my back up (and still does) is the initial post by Col_Deadmarsh. I just felt this had to be said, and this seemed like a good place for it...

That first post was made late at night and I didn't put a lot of thought into it. What I've been saying after that though is that there has got to be a way to defend against most of these gamey tactics, after all, this game is pretty new and I don't think even the people playing the most have discovered every little detail of play.

I can surely agree though that seeing the same units over and over (i.e. SMG squads) would be tiresome. Then again, I would hate to have to impose rules on buying units for myself unless my opponent does the same. Now, I'm not a grog, but nor do I consider myself a power gamer. When I buy my units, I like to try new strategies, purchase different tanks, etc. to see if I can maximize their effectiveness and so on. I would consider myself ahistorical, which I suppose is between the two.

So, I'm not defending the powergamer here. Let's get that straight. Also, I have to admit, I now feel more sympathetic towards the grog. I surely don't want to play one game after another and see the same units and strategy from my opponent every time. After my research on the infantry in the game, I can see how this is happening and I'm sure that with a few more games, I will see this wide spread use of Ubertanks too. Whether these tactics can be countered successfully is still in question, but like I said, I can sympathize with the those who want to play a realistic simulation and not have to deal with this.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[Guest Germanboy]

Col_Deadmarsh,

no hard feelings on my part, I hope none on yours - it gave me the opportunity to say something I feel needed to be said (ranted, more like it). Glad you see my side of the story now too.

Capt. Foobar, not sure how to take that comment, I take it as a compliment then...

Enjoy the game.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Add my name to the list of those who like Germanboy's opponent finder idea.

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What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Germanboy :

I have no idea what it means, but it seems to be what the young people are saying these days. That and suxxors, wAreZ, dOOdz, and so on.. Try some of these in your daily life. I told my boss "wOOt!!", the other day, and he seemed to respond positively..