CM2 mod request: BMW R-75 with Sidecar

[Panzer Leader]

Panther131 makes a good point. THe game engine of CM makes any type of battle a possibility, and the inclusion of these motorcycles or with anything more only does one thing: add more possibilities.

I would ask you two questions PeterNZer: If they were not used in this type of combat, why did they come with (two variations!) of mounted MG? And two, if they were not used in this type of combat, what exact type of combat were they used in?

Your point does not elude me, it is just that you seem to have a very narrow focus on which type of battles and engagements the game portrays. Well, what the game portrays depends on what the scenario designer wants, and if he wants to have these things, then by all means, let him have them.

I would agree that they are not on my "hot list" of units to have, but we can surely just spout out to "our favorite wargaming company" what we want, and then let them sort out their order of importance?

[Wesreidau]

ASL Vet

are you saying the bike was used at the front along with footsoldiers to advance on enemy scout or MLR positions?

Because that's what CM covers really doesn't it?

I guess if you made a 1x3km map you could kinda simulate a force fully scouting out and bikes sitting back with a pair of binoculars.. but in the scope of just about every CM battle i have ever played I don't see how a bike in it would fit?

If you have some CM battles where you think 'a bike would be perfect in here' let me know!

While Aufk. TOE had bikes in them and they scouted around with infantry, what did they do when the shooting started?

I'm not too sure myself, so i'm open to persuasion, but I don't think they were involved in the intimacies of tactical combat... But i could be wrong

PL:

Stick 'em in there at 150pts and i'd be fine with it Scenario designers can get creative then.

Their roles with guns? I imagine as some kind of anti aircraft support. Also in areas like France and the East to scare off any partisans. That's about it.

You've convinced me on the possibilities of interesting scenarios. So stick 'em in there if there's time. Just make them cost a ton

PeterNZ

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: PeterNZer ]

[Wesreidau]

ASL Vet

are you saying the bike was used at the front along with footsoldiers to advance on enemy scout or MLR positions?

Because that's what CM covers really doesn't it?

I guess if you made a 1x3km map you could kinda simulate a force fully scouting out and bikes sitting back with a pair of binoculars.. but in the scope of just about every CM battle i have ever played I don't see how a bike in it would fit?

If you have some CM battles where you think 'a bike would be perfect in here' let me know!

While Aufk. TOE had bikes in them and they scouted around with infantry, what did they do when the shooting started?

I'm not too sure myself, so i'm open to persuasion, but I don't think they were involved in the intimacies of tactical combat... But i could be wrong

PL:

Stick 'em in there at 150pts and i'd be fine with it Scenario designers can get creative then.

Their roles with guns? I imagine as some kind of anti aircraft support. Also in areas like France and the East to scare off any partisans. That's about it.

You've convinced me on the possibilities of interesting scenarios. So stick 'em in there if there's time. Just make them cost a ton

PeterNZ

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: PeterNZer ]

[Panther131]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> While i could of course, just stick with people who only play a certain way, or demand rules, i much prefer just to go for it in a battle and trust the engine and the forces available to be selected to produce some kind of realistic result.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then I point you to the game called Quake.

CM is for a more mature crowd. Its geared that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I guess i'd be happy to see them in there if it didn't mean BTS wasn't doing them insetead of, say, trenches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I dont think that was ever the issue we are talking about here.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Also, if they were in there they should be VERY expensive to encourage their use in scenarios rather than Quick Battles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well maybe you have a point there but kublewagons and jeeps are pretty low cost but they are not used much in QB.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> perhaps I should be more demanding of random opponents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not demanding, just find a similarly minded player and have fun.

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Panther131 ]

[Panther131]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> While i could of course, just stick with people who only play a certain way, or demand rules, i much prefer just to go for it in a battle and trust the engine and the forces available to be selected to produce some kind of realistic result.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then I point you to the game called Quake.

CM is for a more mature crowd. Its geared that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I guess i'd be happy to see them in there if it didn't mean BTS wasn't doing them insetead of, say, trenches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I dont think that was ever the issue we are talking about here.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Also, if they were in there they should be VERY expensive to encourage their use in scenarios rather than Quick Battles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well maybe you have a point there but kublewagons and jeeps are pretty low cost but they are not used much in QB.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> perhaps I should be more demanding of random opponents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not demanding, just find a similarly minded player and have fun.

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Panther131 ]

[Wesreidau]

I don't see what's more mature about providing a page of rules compared to a quick '1500pt, light woods, hills, town' type game setup.

People don't buy kubel waggons because they don't have guns .

I think i do pretty well finding players (mostly 'poolers, hehe), but as I see it the only reason to include them would be to simulate certain special scenarios. Might be too much effort to include them for this goal. But so be it if it is, just make 'em costly. Same goes for Jeeps, KWs and trucks in my mind.

PeterNZ

[Wesreidau]

I don't see what's more mature about providing a page of rules compared to a quick '1500pt, light woods, hills, town' type game setup.

People don't buy kubel waggons because they don't have guns .

I think i do pretty well finding players (mostly 'poolers, hehe), but as I see it the only reason to include them would be to simulate certain special scenarios. Might be too much effort to include them for this goal. But so be it if it is, just make 'em costly. Same goes for Jeeps, KWs and trucks in my mind.

PeterNZ

[Panther131]

I dont think having motorcycle's cost 150 points is the way to go. They are harmless as a fly in most situations and even if they were bought by a young man trying be creative and take out your force with 30 motorcycle's it wont work. So having them at 150 is outlandish if the unit makes into CM.

BTW if your concern is for historical accuracy then worry no more. BTS is implementing a hostorical rarity code into QB force selection. I suppose this might not work with motorcycles though.

For what its worth the motorcycle is easily taken out. I wouldn't be to worried about *gamey * tactics with it.

BTW refer to my second post on this thread about scenario design and CM.

[Panther131]

I dont think having motorcycle's cost 150 points is the way to go. They are harmless as a fly in most situations and even if they were bought by a young man trying be creative and take out your force with 30 motorcycle's it wont work. So having them at 150 is outlandish if the unit makes into CM.

BTW if your concern is for historical accuracy then worry no more. BTS is implementing a hostorical rarity code into QB force selection. I suppose this might not work with motorcycles though.

For what its worth the motorcycle is easily taken out. I wouldn't be to worried about *gamey * tactics with it.

BTW refer to my second post on this thread about scenario design and CM.

[Soddball]

If they were to be included, I would hope they would be priced in a similar fashion to jeep MG's - (25 for regular?).

Since MG jeeps go boom if someone sneezes near them (or, today, when Axis AI plugged one from 400m with a FS squad and blew it to kingdom come) they aren't a major threat.

I do agree that there are units that should be modelled first, but this shouldn't be left out simply because it wasn't a 'common' front line unit. The super pershing is in the CM.

[Soddball]

If they were to be included, I would hope they would be priced in a similar fashion to jeep MG's - (25 for regular?).

Since MG jeeps go boom if someone sneezes near them (or, today, when Axis AI plugged one from 400m with a FS squad and blew it to kingdom come) they aren't a major threat.

I do agree that there are units that should be modelled first, but this shouldn't be left out simply because it wasn't a 'common' front line unit. The super pershing is in the CM.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Perhaps they could be included in the force selection menu for user designed scenarios but be unavailable for QBs. That is if BTS bothers to model them at all. How many of you ever bought the motorcycles/sidecars in Steel Panthers? I never found them to be worth the points.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Perhaps they could be included in the force selection menu for user designed scenarios but be unavailable for QBs. That is if BTS bothers to model them at all. How many of you ever bought the motorcycles/sidecars in Steel Panthers? I never found them to be worth the points.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Which leads to the question 'well what role would you use it for?'. If it can't scout and can't fight well, and all it's good for is hidding in a barn, well it's as much use as a field kitchen. Both were in the war. But I have yet to see the point in setting up a front lines assault bakery unit. Nor have i seen the point of including motorbikes. Or horses. or bicycles. or bakery teams. or mine dogs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Peter, I understand what you are saying, but you do make some generalizations.

Bakery units/field kitchens are represented in the game - they are green or conscript troops. They did occasionally get involved in fighting, particularly on the defense because they had to be near the front lnies to feed the men.

Mine dogs - I'll give you that one.

Motorcycles - were and should be a fast scouting vehicle available particularly to recon units. My word, you don't really think the German scout cars would probe without at least a couple of guys on cycles in front of them, do you? What are they supposed to do - drive forward in groups until one or more of them are whacked? How the heck would they ever get ANYONE to be a recon car crew member?

The cycles could be represented as a type of halftrackish personnel carrier that is unarmed and cannot move unless the infantry mounts them (no bad jokes here, please).

Bikes - used mainly by troops in the Low Countries and Switzerland (until the Swiss retired them last month - sniff - but I digress). I could agree to leave these out because, given their speed would not be much greater than a walking person in fields or scattered trees, I can't see troops riding them forward into potential combat situations, even as scouts.

Horses - here you are way off. I agree that there were not many cavalry charges on either front (and none I can think of after 1943 on the Western front), but they were used in the early war years, particularly by the Russians. The horses were actually not engaged in mass charges, but used in about the same way Gen. Buford used them in the American Civil War - ride your horse to the battle, then dismount and fight. I would imagine they could be treated that way in CM. See the above suggestion for cycles for implementation.

Additionally, nearly all armies but the American and to a lesser extent the British/Canadians used horse carts as a primary means of transportation during the war. The Germans made mass use of them in the closing months of the war due to fuel shortages and the massive destruction of other forms of transportation. In Russia, the horses were used as transport for some units, and were quite common. IIRC, in the book, Enemy at the Gates, one of the Axis soldiers interviewed was the regimental veterinarian - and was involved in the front lines. In fact, the Axis soldiers slaughtered the horses for food after the Soviet breakthrough and isolation of der Kessel.

Another eyewitness, Cpt. Charles MacDonald, in his book "Company Commander" describes the shelling of a German horse cart trying to load up an artillery base. This occurred, IIRC, a few hundred yards in front of his position. The shelling killed the horse and destroyed the gun, but obviously the German soldier thought it was worth a try to use the cart.

As I understand it, BTS hasn't implemented horses (and won't) because of problems with coding, not because they think it would be ahistorical.

One final note - while I understand your grog-passion for historical realism, remember that the casual gamers are part of BTS' success, too; blowing off their interests to satisfy the grogs will cost BTS in the end.

MrSpkr

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Which leads to the question 'well what role would you use it for?'. If it can't scout and can't fight well, and all it's good for is hidding in a barn, well it's as much use as a field kitchen. Both were in the war. But I have yet to see the point in setting up a front lines assault bakery unit. Nor have i seen the point of including motorbikes. Or horses. or bicycles. or bakery teams. or mine dogs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Peter, I understand what you are saying, but you do make some generalizations.

Bakery units/field kitchens are represented in the game - they are green or conscript troops. They did occasionally get involved in fighting, particularly on the defense because they had to be near the front lnies to feed the men.

Mine dogs - I'll give you that one.

Motorcycles - were and should be a fast scouting vehicle available particularly to recon units. My word, you don't really think the German scout cars would probe without at least a couple of guys on cycles in front of them, do you? What are they supposed to do - drive forward in groups until one or more of them are whacked? How the heck would they ever get ANYONE to be a recon car crew member?

The cycles could be represented as a type of halftrackish personnel carrier that is unarmed and cannot move unless the infantry mounts them (no bad jokes here, please).

Bikes - used mainly by troops in the Low Countries and Switzerland (until the Swiss retired them last month - sniff - but I digress). I could agree to leave these out because, given their speed would not be much greater than a walking person in fields or scattered trees, I can't see troops riding them forward into potential combat situations, even as scouts.

Horses - here you are way off. I agree that there were not many cavalry charges on either front (and none I can think of after 1943 on the Western front), but they were used in the early war years, particularly by the Russians. The horses were actually not engaged in mass charges, but used in about the same way Gen. Buford used them in the American Civil War - ride your horse to the battle, then dismount and fight. I would imagine they could be treated that way in CM. See the above suggestion for cycles for implementation.

Additionally, nearly all armies but the American and to a lesser extent the British/Canadians used horse carts as a primary means of transportation during the war. The Germans made mass use of them in the closing months of the war due to fuel shortages and the massive destruction of other forms of transportation. In Russia, the horses were used as transport for some units, and were quite common. IIRC, in the book, Enemy at the Gates, one of the Axis soldiers interviewed was the regimental veterinarian - and was involved in the front lines. In fact, the Axis soldiers slaughtered the horses for food after the Soviet breakthrough and isolation of der Kessel.

Another eyewitness, Cpt. Charles MacDonald, in his book "Company Commander" describes the shelling of a German horse cart trying to load up an artillery base. This occurred, IIRC, a few hundred yards in front of his position. The shelling killed the horse and destroyed the gun, but obviously the German soldier thought it was worth a try to use the cart.

As I understand it, BTS hasn't implemented horses (and won't) because of problems with coding, not because they think it would be ahistorical.

One final note - while I understand your grog-passion for historical realism, remember that the casual gamers are part of BTS' success, too; blowing off their interests to satisfy the grogs will cost BTS in the end.

MrSpkr

[Panzer Leader]

I agree for the most part with Mr. Speaker, however... for horses, I have read many accounts that differ wildly from what most people think about the Russian (Cossack) Cavalry.

In Beevor's "Stalingrad" he gives a telling account of the Cossack Cavalry riding along the Russian Armor in the outset of Operation Uranus (the encirclement of 6th Army).

The Cossacks, riding their shaggy ponies alongside the rolling tanks, sprayed the Hungarian defensive line with sub-machine-gun fire as they galloped, being the only infantry able to keep up with the charge. The Hungarians were completely unwound by the assault and suffered heavy losses before crumbling.

From the descriptions I haver read, it seems clear to me that mounted cavalry were commonplace on the Russian Steppes during battles of all sizes and "scopes"

And finally, Partisans used similar tactics, and most partisans were either on horseback during raids, or had their horses nearby in ambushes.

Guy Sajer mentions Mounted Partisans in his book "Forgotten Soldier."

As you were...

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ]

[Panzer Leader]

I agree for the most part with Mr. Speaker, however... for horses, I have read many accounts that differ wildly from what most people think about the Russian (Cossack) Cavalry.

In Beevor's "Stalingrad" he gives a telling account of the Cossack Cavalry riding along the Russian Armor in the outset of Operation Uranus (the encirclement of 6th Army).

The Cossacks, riding their shaggy ponies alongside the rolling tanks, sprayed the Hungarian defensive line with sub-machine-gun fire as they galloped, being the only infantry able to keep up with the charge. The Hungarians were completely unwound by the assault and suffered heavy losses before crumbling.

From the descriptions I haver read, it seems clear to me that mounted cavalry were commonplace on the Russian Steppes during battles of all sizes and "scopes"

And finally, Partisans used similar tactics, and most partisans were either on horseback during raids, or had their horses nearby in ambushes.

Guy Sajer mentions Mounted Partisans in his book "Forgotten Soldier."

As you were...

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ]

[ColonelSquirrel]

whats the big deal it has no gun and is about as useful as a KW or Jeep. Im more curious in the fact that there are so few U.S. Half track varients when there are tons of Axis half tracks the U.S. had plenty of varients quad .50s and a SP 40mm for AA, a HMC varient etc.

[ColonelSquirrel]

whats the big deal it has no gun and is about as useful as a KW or Jeep. Im more curious in the fact that there are so few U.S. Half track varients when there are tons of Axis half tracks the U.S. had plenty of varients quad .50s and a SP 40mm for AA, a HMC varient etc.

[Wesreidau]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Horses - here you are way off. I agree that there were not many cavalry charges on either front (and none I can think of after 1943 on the Western front), but they were used in the early war years, particularly by the Russians. The horses were actually not engaged in mass charges, but used in about the same way Gen. Buford used them in the American Civil War - ride your horse to the battle, then dismount and fight. I would imagine they could be treated that way in CM. See the above suggestion for cycles for implementation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no.. not ... the horses.. debate.. again..

i believe coding was part of the issue.

the other part was that .. or arse to it, it's all in the huge other thread on the debate. ..

PeterNZ

[Wesreidau]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Horses - here you are way off. I agree that there were not many cavalry charges on either front (and none I can think of after 1943 on the Western front), but they were used in the early war years, particularly by the Russians. The horses were actually not engaged in mass charges, but used in about the same way Gen. Buford used them in the American Civil War - ride your horse to the battle, then dismount and fight. I would imagine they could be treated that way in CM. See the above suggestion for cycles for implementation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no.. not ... the horses.. debate.. again..

i believe coding was part of the issue.

the other part was that .. or arse to it, it's all in the huge other thread on the debate. ..

PeterNZ

[ASL Veteran]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Horses - here you are way off. I agree that there were not many cavalry charges on either front (and none I can think of after 1943 on the Western front), but they were used in the early war years, particularly by the Russians. The horses were actually not engaged in mass charges, but used in about the same way Gen. Buford used them in the American Civil War - ride your horse to the battle, then dismount and fight. I would imagine they could be treated that way in CM. See the above suggestion for cycles for implementation.

MrSpkr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, cavalry were used in mass charges in world war 2 - probably not very often, but it happened. One time that I can think of right off the top of my head was the Italian Savoi Regiment (I think) conducted a full up mounted saber flashing charge in best Napoleonic style and overran several Soviet infantry units who were guarding a bridgehead of some kind. I don't remember the specifics of it at the moment, but perhaps someone who does can comment on it. Anyway, I agree with Peter on one thing - no need to drag up "The Great Horse Controversy" again . Personally, I think that would be an excellent scenario to make .

The Germans actually conducted a motorcycle mounted assault during the invasion of Holland in order to capture the Dutch Queen and the government. I'm sure the Germans were all wearing their leather biker outfits at the time - very fashionable in Holland so I've heard :eek: .

Anyway, I never play quick battles and my interest in these things is as a scenario maker exclusively - I can certainly see where someone who mostly played quick battles may not see the usefulness of these items (or just focus on any percieved gamey issues). I am glad to see Partisans on the list of items that was to be included in CM2 in the article. I think that will allow scenario designers a great deal of freedom for East Front scenarios. I will be curious to see how BTS handles them.

[ASL Veteran]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Horses - here you are way off. I agree that there were not many cavalry charges on either front (and none I can think of after 1943 on the Western front), but they were used in the early war years, particularly by the Russians. The horses were actually not engaged in mass charges, but used in about the same way Gen. Buford used them in the American Civil War - ride your horse to the battle, then dismount and fight. I would imagine they could be treated that way in CM. See the above suggestion for cycles for implementation.

MrSpkr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, cavalry were used in mass charges in world war 2 - probably not very often, but it happened. One time that I can think of right off the top of my head was the Italian Savoi Regiment (I think) conducted a full up mounted saber flashing charge in best Napoleonic style and overran several Soviet infantry units who were guarding a bridgehead of some kind. I don't remember the specifics of it at the moment, but perhaps someone who does can comment on it. Anyway, I agree with Peter on one thing - no need to drag up "The Great Horse Controversy" again . Personally, I think that would be an excellent scenario to make .

The Germans actually conducted a motorcycle mounted assault during the invasion of Holland in order to capture the Dutch Queen and the government. I'm sure the Germans were all wearing their leather biker outfits at the time - very fashionable in Holland so I've heard :eek: .

Anyway, I never play quick battles and my interest in these things is as a scenario maker exclusively - I can certainly see where someone who mostly played quick battles may not see the usefulness of these items (or just focus on any percieved gamey issues). I am glad to see Partisans on the list of items that was to be included in CM2 in the article. I think that will allow scenario designers a great deal of freedom for East Front scenarios. I will be curious to see how BTS handles them.

[Comic book Guy]

I think it would be cool having one on the vehicles pool, but maybe they should have a spotter in the side car or a 34 or 42 gunner option? Its only right!

[Comic book Guy]

I think it would be cool having one on the vehicles pool, but maybe they should have a spotter in the side car or a 34 or 42 gunner option? Its only right!