Anyone ever use the Hummel?

[Hawkeye]

Why do I never hear anything about this unit? I've had some really great experiences with it (apart from the risk of mortar fire). The 150mm cannon is a one-way ticket to ROUTED! status. Does anyone know how frequently/effectively these were used historically perchance?

Hawkeye

[von Lucke]

I think I've only read of one instance of Hummels being used for direct-fire purposes, and I think that was on the East Front.

They work well in City or Town fights, so long as you keep them hidden until yr sure the enemy has no more AT assets. Despite the occassional "c" round, the Hummel will invariably retreat from all enemy armor without firing a shot. It also has a slow ROF, and no MG for infantry suppression --- but keep it in the rear, with a good LOS, and it usually pays for itself.

[KiwiJoe]

They rock. At 80 points with a 200 blast rating they only have to last 1-2 turns to rip the ass outta *many* infantry squads. They fire 3 rounds a turn which is 600 blast. Compare that to a standard allied 75mm gun with a 39 blast rating which fires off around 9 rounds a turn...351 blast. I had 1 fire 2 rounds at a VL. 4 dead bodies apeared and what was left wasnt in ANY sort of fighting condition.

Keep them hidden, then give them a key hole shot at a VL or suspected infantry attack rout... you will most likely be rather happy with the results

[Fenris]

Reading "The Guns of War" by George Blackburn a Canadian FOO at the moment.

One day, late 44, as he was with the 2nd Canadian Inf Division moving up thru Belgium/Holland they took a village. Suddenly some recce cars came back thru the village shouting a tank was right behind them. Then thunderous explosions are heard further up the street.

George goes into a house and up the stairs with a company CO IIRC and they spot not a Panzer but an SP gun in some trees systematically levelling all the houses in the row along the street. He tells of his wanting to flee as the HE rounds get closer and closer to the house he's in whilst he waits for the artillery strike he's called to stop a German counter attack backed up by this gun that is just now taking shape.

Lucky for him the arty arrives breaking up the attack and knocking out the gun.

Inspired by this I played a QB and purchased 2 Hummels. It was a German attack on a village and I must say they were great for demolishing buildings housing the defending infantry. I ensured they were a long way from the action and I also tried to suppress the defending infantry with small arms fire. It worked a treat.

Regards,

Fen

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Bah, played one in a scenario, blasts are good but thingie has few ammo and is VERY vulnerable, sort of shell magnet in addition...

For now I stick to the lighter 105mm Wespe, blast is good too (77), ammo higher, it has *some* chance vs armor (at Elsdorf I had one taking out a armed HT then a Priest with just 2 shots !), it's less expensive and silhouette is smaller (so easier to hide/harder to hit). Armor is crap too, however...

My 0.02 lbs of shelling...

[KiwiJoe]

Hummel and wespe both fire 3 shots per turn. Hummel gets around 18 ammo so thats 6 turns of fire and a total 3600 blast (200x 18). Wespe gets around 30 ammo at 77 blast : 2310. The chances are neither of them will live long enough to empty their loads, so the hummel is the better purchase having the same rof and 2.5 times the blast with each shot.

It's only negatives over the wespe are its slightly larger size and 20 odd extra points to purchase. And I'd say with a 200 blast it would have a good chance to destroy light armour and immoblise heaver stuff.

But I guess its up to personal choice

[Col Deadmarsh]

That's cool. Kinda like the German's answer to the AVRE.

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[Guest MantaRay]

Ya, but the Hummel has much better range, and kills infantry. AVRE's only kill bunkers effectively. The AVRE is also expensive. A hummel is far better in most situations.

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[Olle Petersson]

When choosing between Hummel and Wespe, I usually go for the latter because they were more common (yes, the historical approach).

I'll have to test the ROF comparison though...

How about traverse (= target aquisition time), does this differ between them?

Regarding blast values:

I just noticed that blast rating for Hummel is 200, for off map 15cm arty it's 199, and for on map sIG 33 it's just below 180...

Cheers

Olle

[Jarmo]

I've used them a couple of times.

Very effective if there's no AT around.

(or .50 cal MG's)

Historically they were supposed to be used for indirect fire only.

Definitely not as the german answer to Avre.

But as we've seen, the germans were very gamey now and then...

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

The Hummel has one shot less per turn from what I tested with CMBO

1.12. Traverse (= target aquisition) time is practically the same.

It is funny to see that Wespe and Hummel can turn the whole vehicle faster that a Tiger can turn its turret. The insects also turn faster than the StuH, probably CMBO use the ground pressure to determine this.

So, that Wespe/Hummel have no turret is not a real disadvance on closer look (except when they get bogged , but I still don't like them because they lack MGs and are too vulnerable to hand grenades and mortar fire. May I'm just too stupid to place and keep such units safe - but then, if I could, I'd choose a 105mm Howitzer.

There is a general difference between gun characteristics that go beyond the plain blast value, even when facing infantry.

The Wespe/Hummel/StuH shoot less precise than tank guns or the towed 105mm howitzer, but still better than the 105mm RCL.

I was interested in how to clear foxholes best and did a few tests. Various German guns and tanks shoot at one regular U.S. rifle squad in command by a regular HQ with morale bonus of 1, in foxholes in open ground. Distance is 660 meters (the infantry cannot shoot back).

How long does it take to break the squad so that it leaves the foxhole?

Tiger: 30 seconds

150mm Inf. Gun: 30 seconds

88mm Pak43: 100 seconds (eliminated)

Wespe: 100 seconds

StuH: 100 seconds

105mm RCL: 150 seconds (have to rate this as a lucky hit, squad with many men was OK before)

105mm Howitzer: 160 seconds (eliminated)

Hummel: 170 seconds (eliminated, panicked much earlier, but didn't leave foxhole)

Pz. IVG: 175 seconds (eliminated)

3x 81mm mtr: ineffective, squad stays in foxhole with 4 men left unbroken after ammo runs out

Second/third run:

150mm Inf. Gun: 50/50 seconds

Pz. IVG: 55/30 seconds

88: 60/145 seconds

Hummel: 90/35 seconds

Wespe: 145/120 seconds

StuH: 145/50 seconds

Tiger: 185/110 seconds

105mm Howitzer: 230/220 seconds

105mm RCL: no success/245 seconds

3x 81mm Mortar: no success/120 seconds

Conclusions:

Some guys obviously practiced between these tests, whereas others had a party with much target water.

Getting people out of foxholes needs some research, simply adding blast effect will not do the job. Morale effects from approaching tanks/flamethrowers or from flanking are probably required to do this without extreme loss of ammunition and time.

Something makes the 150mm Inf. Gun more effective than the howitzers. It may be that the higher flight curve makes it more effective against foxholes or that the shell, which has to endure much less velocity, is made so that it breaks up into more effective fragments. I want a SP version of this piece in CM2 (Bison)

At this distance of 660 meter (where infantry cannot shoot back), the chance of a direct hit into the foxhole is low and if it happens, its probably an AT-capable tank gun, not one of the howitzers.

Furthermore, you cannot move the Wespe/Hummel and halftracks into the field of allied .50cal fire (which includes the M3A1/M5A1 halftracks), and the towed guns not into infantry range at all. The tanks and StuG/H may be moved towards infantry up to 150 meter (Bazooka), thus further increasing the chance of a direct hit into the foxhole. At 220 meters the tanks (even the PzVIG) can reliable(!) knock out the foxholes within 3 turns. Not to speak of spotting, the tank further to the enemy sees a log more, although it needs to be buttoned.

Overall, I see a reason why the towed howitzers and the thin-skinned SP guns are usually not used in direct-sight attack, but in preparation (indirect) fire to flatten buildings'n'stuff (not that I like flattening a building, someone was living in there). Normal tanks and specialized infantry guns seem to be more effective to clear things that are left after the preparation fire.

Or in other words, I'd rather buy flamethrower vehicles when I'm against a dug in defender than high-blast SP guns and I have a tendency towards universal tanks anyway. Before you go shopping for the infantry guns, read the threads about gun spotting.

I have to add that I am impressed by the mechanisms in CMBO. A few months ago I would not believe that in practice someone would implement such a fine game (the combination from mechanisms, graphics, great publisher, sound(!)).

[Juardis]

Well done Martin, thanks for taking the time to test and post your results.

As far as ROF for the Hummel though, I've only had success in getting it to fire once per 60 sec turn. Don't know where the 3 times per/turn came from. This with a previous version of the game though, so maybe ROF has changed?

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Jeff Abbott

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by Juardis:

As far as ROF for the Hummel though, I've only had success in getting it to fire once per 60 sec turn. Don't know where the 3 times per/turn came from. This with a previous version of the game though, so maybe ROF has changed?

Probably different skill levels. The higher the skill level, the better the ROF. Try crack 57mm AT guns sometime, they really rock.

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[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Juardis:

Well done Martin, thanks for taking the time to test and post your results.

As far as ROF for the Hummel though, I've only had success in getting it to fire once per 60 sec turn. Don't know where the 3 times per/turn came from. This with a previous version of the game though, so maybe ROF has changed?

I played with one last night and got 3 shots per turn. Depends how far along the reloading/sighting process is when the turn ends. It was 2 or 3 shots each turn.

Martin, that 3rd run seemed a bit more like it from the games I've played. The whole game yesterday, my first shots were causing troops to evacuate their positions. Course the big problem is, as you said, HMG fire. I lost one to a long MG shot. If I buy them, I try to mix in a StuH42 or two so I can have a bit more close in punch, plus they're more likely to take on light armor.

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[Leonidas]

The Hummel is an awful lot of fun. I don't know of any other way to get control over those massive explosions. If you're in a mood to knock around the AI, try the Hummel on defense. Knock out his armor, then pull out your Hummel and target his infantry huddled in the trees. When you know you'll be kicking your opponent around, the Hummel is great fun.

Against a serious opponent, though, the Hummel's weaknesses become a problem. It's not only vulnerable to other tanks, but also to armored cars and any arty, including mortars. The Hummel is also a little slow, and the ROF is miserable. Another problem is the tiny traverse angle for the gun. If the target leaves that little arc, the Hummel will not rotate the hull to find a new target. So your Hummel can spend a lot of time sitting in the open and not firing, unless you're careful.

I will occasionally use Hummels on defense, as a mobile infantry gun. Place it in an anticipated line of attack, but not generally visible. Once the enemy inf comes into view, take two or three shots for a turn, really ruining some platoon's day. Next turn, back up and hide while the enemy arty is counting down. Later in the battle you may be able to bring it out again.

Another point: The Hummel may be the best way to blow up a buliding before the infantry can escape. With the latest patch, infantry now abandons a building under area fire from a tank, preventing most inf casualties from collapsing buildings. But I bet a pair of Hummels could flatten most buidings on the first shot, before the occupants have time to move out.

[Olle Petersson]

I've just done a test to see the actual differences between Hummel, Wespe and StuH42.

I made them all regular, with 18 HE-shells each.

Then set them up to fire at area targets some 1560m away, and timed them.

Time from first go to last shell fired:

- StuH42; 4:22

- Wespe; 5:24

- Hummel; 8:10

I can't understand why the Wespe has a rating of "low ROF", while the StuH42 doesn't. From an ergonomical POW this seem silly, but I think there was something about the ammo storage. Can anyone confirm this?

The impact pattern can be seen below.

Maybe worth noticing is that the Hummel was mostly short on the target. All rounds fired in the first 5 turns were short, except for one round that was the longest shot of all 18.

Conclusion:

- Hummel has lowest ROF.

- Wespe is most accurate.

- StuH42 is least accurate, but slightly higher ROF than the other.

Cheers

Olle

[gaffertape]

Very informative, OLLE. Thanks.

[Jeff Heidman]

That dispersion sucks. Almost completely lateral, and no horizontal.

I guess if you want to spread the shells out, you'd better move your aim point a little.

Jeff Heidman

[Vanir]

Originally posted by Martin Cracauer:

It is funny to see that Wespe and Hummel can turn the whole vehicle faster that a Tiger can turn its turret.

Well, the Tiger rotates its hull at the same time its turning the turret, so it actually does get its gun on target faster than the hummel. Otherwise a good post.

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What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve

[Juardis]

Yeah, I use regular Hummels and only target buildings. But again, I haven't had one since 1.05.

Interesting that the StuH is as inaccurate (or more correctly, imprecise) as it is. The Hummel doesn't need to be accurate since it packs a huge blast. Given the choice between the StuH and the Wespe though you almost have to go with the StuH.

[Wittmann]

Of course, an inexperienced crew with a hunt command......engage atarget 30m away and commit suicide....it took blackhorse days to stop laughing at that!

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

3 Tigers standing 90 degrees from target.

Time until gun faces target:

- turret rotate only: 16 seconds

- hull rotate only: 13 seconds

- doing both: 7 seconds

Hummel: 9 seconds until guns faces target, 11 until hull is straight, first shot in second 15.

Regarding the ROF, the shell for the Hummel's gun (Panzerfeldhaubitze 18M) weights 43.5 kg. The crew were one driver and five for the gun, as much as usually for a towed gun, but for a gun that did the moving and traversing itself. I imagine loading the thing was hard work.

As for experience, the difference between regular and crack is about 15% in ROF and 10% in time to first shot (in Tigers from 90 degrees off target initially).

[Subvet]

I normally use the Wespe and not the Hummel, but last night I bought a couple of Hummels for the tourney game. They were both taken out before they fired a shot or moved an inch by my opponents airforce using their machineguns. Of course the Wespe is just as easy for aircraft to take out. Open topped AFV's vs. aircraft is not a good situation to be in, lol.

I like the low cost AFV's, and buy them instead of "ubertanks." Until last night I had never even bought a Tiger or Panther for use against a human opponent, let alone the super heavyweights. Normally I buy cheap vehicles for AT and cheap vehicles for AP. This means I'll buy the M8 HMC or Priest along with M10's, Jacksons, or Hellcats instead of that Super Pershing. I'm not sure this is the best way to do it, but I have had pretty good success with it.

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Craiger

All your victory flag are belong to me

[Hawkmek]

I love using the Hummel. They just need TLC. Their slow ROF and and low ammo are frustrating at times, but I love to watch the inf scatter when the Bee finally does get off a round.

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It's not the size of the tube, it's the blast radius that matters.

[Warmaker]

Nice information guys. For infantry support with a big gun I usually get the more survivable StuH42. However, if I feel the need to level buildings in short order, the Hummel's 150mm does it QUITE well. Which is why I pick it every now and then to soften targets precisely or breakup those infantry attacks.

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