How the Hell do you defend against massive arty? Must read!

[Captain Wacky]

Generally, if your under fire from 81mm or smaller you're going to be okay. You might take some casualties, but you probably won't break and run unless under fire for an extended period of time. If your men are in trees, woods particularly, get them outta there ASAP. You will lose far less if you're in open ground due to the lack of tree bursts.

Now, if you come under 105mm or 155mm you're gonna have to bug outta there quickly. Your men will break and run almost as soon as a shell hits near them. Foxholes provide some cover, but not enough. These calibers are among the most common "bigger" ones, and will really chew your men up. The same rule of tree bursts applies here. Better to take that arty in the open than to suffer from 105mm and 155mm tree bursts, which will annihilate squads at a time. Note: If you come under fire from 105mm VT then it doesn't matter where you are because the shells will always explode above ground due to the radio fuse. Get your men into houses if you can.

Anything bigger than 155mm and there's really not much you can do. You're screwed if you're in the open, you're screwed if you're in trees, and your probably still screwed even if you're in buildings, although heavy ones will help out here. The best advice is to simply not get hit by it, which is easier than it sounds. Try to get your opponent to waste his arty on crap targets through deception. Luckily these bigger calibers aren't very common in CM due to the scale.

If you come under 14" battleship fire, there is nothing you can do. You are screwed and have just lost the battle Those shells can land 100m or more away from a platoon and still kill the majority of men.

[The Commissar]

CombatGen,

If you have evidence that your opponent likes to use large calibre arty, use former Soviet doctrine on dealing with possible NATO employment of tactical nuclear weapons (and generally any concentration of heavy firepower).

Basically, it goes something like this: Keep moving, close with the enemy ASAP, and never stop moving for any lenght of time. If possible, no more then a turn in CM terms. If your opponent likes to employ large arty, he doesn't have much other, more flexible arty in his inventory. If he can't pinpoint your men when their moving, he can't hit them. And when they stop moving while down his throat, he can't hit them either.

I rather think that this will be more effective in CMBB, due to more advanced armor targeting dynamics (shame to lose advancing tanks to enemy armor because they were busy blowing up an MG) and such.

[Foobar]

I usually stay put during an artillery barrage. By the time the shells are falling, you are asking for trouble by telling them to get on their feet.

Now if you have other reasons for wanting to displace your units, besides your shell-phobia, then try a modification of that running sideways trick. Instead, run diagonally back towards your own lines, at an angle that allows you to use the withdraw command. What you lose in time for having to run diagonally, you will make up for spending less time at ground zero, since you have just eliminated a 15-33-45 second command delay..

[Swift]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

If your men are in trees, woods particularly, get them outta there ASAP. You will lose far less if you're in open ground due to the lack of tree bursts.<hr></blockquote>

My problem is that as soon as the shells starts to land the troops run for cover and that is usually the same wood the enemy is shelling...

[Silvio Manuel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Soddball:

Mr Silvio Manuel! Aha! Get thee hence to the Antithicess thread and make thy presence known by taunting, for it is more of thy gamey kind we need.

<hr></blockquote>

said The Emperor to Lord Vader, "soon my friend, soon." Though maybe only 1 fight, esp. if I am granted entrance into the Newbie Tourney.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]</p>

[Commander]

When under a small caliber barrage, I try to spread my units but typically do not run.(when in trees) Anything bigger than 105mm and I have my units run perpendicular to the barrage and I back weak armor away. If possible, I put my units into buildings (thats the best place to survive an artillery barrage unless the building takes a direct hit or two).

In the quality match I played with JasonC, he had a TRP in the most perfect spot and - Boom!! just like that caused me to surrender. (well, that and the fact that some GREEN shreks took out my two tanks) Units do not survive in the open while under a direct 120mm barrage!

[Commander]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by The Commissar:

CombatGen,

If you have evidence that your opponent likes to use large calibre arty, use former Soviet doctrine on dealing with possible NATO employment of tactical nuclear weapons (and generally any concentration of heavy firepower).

Basically, it goes something like this: Keep moving, close with the enemy ASAP, and never stop moving for any lenght of time. If possible, no more then a turn in CM terms. If your opponent likes to employ large arty, he doesn't have much other, more flexible arty in his inventory. If he can't pinpoint your men when their moving, he can't hit them. And when they stop moving while down his throat, he can't hit them either.

I rather think that this will be more effective in CMBB, due to more advanced armor targeting dynamics (shame to lose advancing tanks to enemy armor because they were busy blowing up an MG) and such.<hr></blockquote>

Exactly the line of thinking I used in the Quality Match vs JasonC. I didn't use recon like I normally would. I figured JasonC was an expert at using artillery (I was right) and I had calculated that he purchased at least one and probably two 120mm FO's (right again). Because of those facts, I thought the best thing to do was to drop a lot of smoke and get into buildings on the edge of town close to a defendable VL and thats exactly where he placed his TRP. That short game taught me a lot!

[JasonC]

It was one module of 120mm and a single TRP in the right spot. (And by the way, the tanks were from *one* green schreck lol). But you are right, that the "just keep moving" idea doesn't work against prepared defenses, because the artillery will be registered, and there won't be delay difficulties in calling for the fire. You are also right that you can't sit out 120mm (or 105mm) barrages, in the open any more than in trees. They won't actually kill everybody (155mm plus *can*), but they will break everybody, half-squad many units, and scatter the formation.

81mm is about the only thing you can afford to "ride out". 120mm and under, inside stone buildings, you will be left with busted and depleted units, but units. Sometimes you have no choice and must sit for that, but it is rarely the thing to do.

The best thing against artillery is to (1) not bunch up too much (you did in our fight and it cost you), (2) run when you see the spotting round (if there is one), and (3) don't ask for combat anything from units being shelled, or after a barrage for a few minutes. Because even busted platoons will reform if safe momentarily.

And that matters, because artillery takes itself out by expending rounds. If a defender has e.g. a 120mm module, that is 102 points, and the attacker has 153 to counter them. 168 with a TRP. That is a platoon and change. If two platoons get shattered by the rounds but reform with something signficant left in each, then the attacker will break even. If only one platoon gets clobbered, he is ahead of the game. With a US 105mm module, you are talking about 6 minutes of fire. But a defender that spends 234 on one such module and a couple of TRPs, needs it to counter 350 points of attackers just to be even with the point odds he faces. That is a small company.

The key to weathering artillery fire on offense is to use plans that do not count too much on individual platoons or tight pacing, and then to roll with the punches. Meaning, skedaddle when it is landing and give the men time to breath afterward, before asking anything of them. Infantry has to be able to fight "ugly", meaning after being messed up and then rallying, reforming the remnants, and still getting something out of them. It can also help to use smaller platoons by having every higher HQ form an ad hoc additional one with "borrowed" squads, and keep them reasonably spread.

Running forward is not a substitute for running back, as the "keep moving" idea hopes. Because units get messed up in barrages, and they need to be away from the enemy until they reform. Running back leaves the barrage between the enemy and you, and thus his own shells shield the men while they reform. Running forward doesn't - it shoves the breaking and disorganized force onto the enemy's ground firepower.

The only time the "keep moving" idea *does* make sense is when still "traveling", meaning not yet in contact, still closing on the approach march. But it is even more important to move unpredictably, because just marching in can be as easy to forecast as sitting still. In practice, unpredictable moves are moves to the rear that weren't forced - they are the least expected and thus the most likely to throw off a barrage schedule. Thus, the plan needs to be flexible, not on a time-table.

Defenders can actually have bigger problems with arty sometimes, simply because the attacker can afford more of it, and the defender can't afford many losses to it. If the effective infantry odds hit 2-1 or higher, there is little the defender can do to stop an infantry rush. And that is not far away, if artillery blows away several platoons of defenders. Also, the defender has less time to rally broken men before the enemy arrives with maneuver elements to follow up the barrages.

In return for these serious added dangers, defenders have three advantages. The attackers don't get TRPs (very useful), the defender gets foxholes (moderately useful, when used right), and above all - "he doesn't know where you are" . The first means you can protect yourself better by moving than attackers can. But the movements will generally be rearward, as a defender. The second can be a trap, if you over-rely on the foxholes and sit under barrages. You will lose infantry, the infantry odds will drop below 2-1, and unless your armor-war stuff performs miracles, you will lose eventually because of it. The third is the key to all successful defense. It includes full use of "hide", reverse slopes, etc.

Rigid and linear defenses, especially if all "up" deployments to cover wide areas of open ground, can be smashed consistently by a little preliminary scouting and a lot of preliminary bombarding. The infantry odds are already favorable. The shells increase them, and are followed closely by a rush, before the defenders have time to rally. It is probably the most common successful attacking formula.

To stop it, the first thing needed is a willingness to move, and a defensive plan that can survive conceeding this position or that. Alternate positions, created by using split-squad foxholes initially and incorporating heavy buildings into defensive lines, are the answer here. Preferably with covered routes between them, at least some "reverse slope" positions, and far enough apart to not be under the same barrage footprint.

When accurate spotting rounds are seen on the forward positions, do not wait. Withdraw-run to the secondary positions. Often a unit or two will be caught during the movement and panic, remaining and being chopped up. That is better than losing the whole platoon. You can afford to exchange squads for half a module of artillery, but not whole platoons.

No, it is not "already too late" if the shells are falling. Do the same thing. The time between volleys is typically 15-20 seconds, and running infantry can get a fair ways in that length of time. A couple of volleys, at most, will land while you are getting clear. Half of the shells in each will be out of position by random scatter, especially somewhat into the move. It is better to take 2-6 shells moving, than 30-50 sitting still.

But it is not worth the added delay to give a command, even to run to the side. Because the printed delay is not the delay you will experience. Every shell nearby will lower the morale state, and every tick downward in the morale state will lengthen the delay. Once they hit panic, they will freeze and ignore the order. Withdraw-run overcomes a variable, not a fixed delay. Yes, it makes sense to angle away from the impact area if enemy direct fire possibilities permit it, but do use the "withdraw" order. Then thing is to get the men moving, as fast as possible, as far as possible, before the 2nd or 3rd salvo lands.

Being clear of the barrage area while the shells are still falling has other benefits besides not experiencing their direct effects. The enemy shells are denying the position to the enemy, at least as effectively as the presence of your platoon could have done. He can't occupy the position until he orders the shelling stopped. Being clear sooner means more time to rally. If the rally is fast enough, you may even beat the enemy back into the shelled position, if you choose to reman it when the barrage stops. If the rally takes a long time, it is better to *not* be at the location the enemy will charge to follow up the barrage, than to still be there, broken, and get finished off by his post-barrage rush.

There are times when you should sit still when artillery is falling, and judging them is one of the harder parts of defending, because the stakes of a wrong guess are high and there is often little objective info to go on. When the shells are unobserved, wide-sheaf fire of medium caliber, you can sit still in foxhole or heavy building cover. The attacker is unlikely to expend a whole module of artillery in such wide, harassing fashion, and troops remaining under a shelled area can surprise him or keep him "honest". Because if you run from shelling regularly, attackers get tempted to try to "bluff" you out of positions they want, with just scattered shelling.

When the barrage is not too accurate, and your men are obviously not spotted yet (not in a firefight, etc), then sitting still can also make sense. Most of the shells will miss, and misses are good. A few won't and will hurt, but foxholes or buildings can cover you against a few lucky hits. Remember, if he doesn't get whole platoons, you can outlast his HE supply. And such "long preliminary" shelling gives you more time to rally and reorganize from its effects. It is thus not nearly as dangerous as aimed barrages on whole platoons in the middle of firefights. With 155mm and up arty, it can still be extremely painful however. The best protection against it is not having everyone in the most obvious defensive locations, or too bunched up.

The hardest but most satisfying defender's trick for dealing with artillery fire, is target deception. You know there are certain spots on the map that he will obviously expect to find defended. He knows the most effective use of heavy arty is to plaster full platoons while they are engaged in firefights. So, what you want to do is present him with 4-5 "infantry?" markers at that location at a time when he can spot men there, and keep that up for ~3 minutes, when in fact your "investment" of men there is minimal and temporary.

How? With half-squads, weapons HQs, teams will limited ammo that fire all of it off before the shells land (e.g. 2" and 60mm mortars for Allies), LMGs or other MGs. In other words, a "stay behind detail" that opens up from "forward" positions, at range, can survive fire (often just from scouting elements) for a couple of minutes. While your main force is in reverse slope positions, not within the same barrage footprint.

There is another set of important techniques for dealing with the "barrage and rush" attacker's tactic. The idea is area denial to the enemy rushing force after the barrage, without your own men needing to be there. One way is to call your own barrage, even a light one, on or just ahead of the location of his, after your men have cleared the area. As the delay counts down, his barrage lands. After his barrage ends, with only a short pause, your own starts. This keeps him off of the position he wanted, and sometimes catches the rushing force. This can become a sort of "artillery tag", with both sides expending HE on the same area, and anyone trying to actually occupy the ground just getting clobbered. The reason to use light artillery for this (75mm, 81mm) is because you can afford to exchange your light arty ammo for his heavy, but not heavy for heavy indefinitely.

A second version of the same idea is a TRP on occuppied and important positions at set up. When an enemy barrage forces you out of the location, just clear out and stand by. Then wait for him to actually occupy it, and hit him there with the TRP artillery. Follow up with a counterattack back to the original positions. This is very common for positions right on objectives.

A third version is the use of an AP minefield "shield" ahead of important positions, to do permanently for little cost what barrages do temporarily for high cost. You fight from the foreward positions there to encourage the "barrage and rush" attack. You clear out when the barrage arrives, and his subsequent rush runs onto the mines.

The moral to all of the above is to stay supple and roll with artillery punches. Arty takes itself out of the battle by expending its limited ammo. You just have to keep the losses from it limited, and weather the temporary breaking it is sure to cause. You are never going to eliminate losses from it - anyone who knows what he is doing will hurt *something* with the arty he buys. But he may not have hurt enough guys, five minutes after the barrage lifts, to pay for the infantry he couldn't take because he spent the points on arty.

Finally, there is one other counter to enemy artillery-heavy forces. Heavy, fully topped armor. Tanks are not invunerable to artillery and should not sit still under it, but they are much less vunerable to it than infantry is. They are usually not in the cover the artillery gets pointed at. They can clear barrage areas rapidly without paralyzing delay from low morale caused by the barrage. They are more easily kept seperate from other targets, because they don't need HQs and have sufficient firepower for self defense, alone. And artillery is too expensive to spend large numbers of heavy shells at just one vehicle, for the off-chance they might damage it. A defense with even one heavy AFV present can plug arty-created gaps in a way wholly infantry-gun defenses cannot.

I hope this helps.

[Commander]

It definately helps me. I wish I would have read that before my battle with Arne. I used my arty way to early. Surely, he has had time to regroup by now! Being a newbie really sucks. Thanks for the lesson Jason (both of them!)

[109 Gustav]

CombatGeneral, you've just met JasonC, chairman and president of the groggiest of the grogs. You must read and take notes on his entire post, you'll be quizzed on it next Tuesday

[Massattack]

Thank you Jason for an excellent and informative post. Definitely a must for the FAQ, and just the sort of information that us new enthusiasts of the game need to help refine our gameplay.

[Crash-Neptune]

Has anyone ever come under 14" fire? If so, what happend?

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Crash-Neptune:

Has anyone ever come under 14" fire? If so, what happend?<hr></blockquote>

Everything dies.

[Barrold]

Everyone and his uncle dies.

[CMplayer]

and the mascot.

[Captain Wacky]

and the mascot's dog.

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

and the mascot's dog.<hr></blockquote>

...and the dog's fleas.

[Silvio Manuel]

Hell, 8 inch guns are bad enough. While attacking (and getting chewed to bits) as the US Rangers in Big Red Omaha, ONE of my 8" FO's spotting rounds killed a CONFIRMED 38 of my own troops.

With that kind of fire support, the Germans needed only hammocks, not pillboxes.

[WWB]

To answer the original question:

You do not defend against massive arty. That is kind of the point. You dig in and wait for attack, and someone lobs shells at you instead until you decide to dig in elsewhere.

WWB

[PiggDogg]

JasonC, thanks again for the thesis. It was well thought out & presented. You are certainly one of the grogiest of the grogs.

Everyone, the short & very simple anti-arty rule is: "if you are going to be hit by arty of 105 mm or larger, run away or you will die." :eek: :eek:

Sometimes, the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) rule is the most useful.

Cheers, Richard

[JasonC]

Well, I'd change the short version slightly. *Since* (not if) you *are* going to get hit by 105mm plus arty, learn both to run away *and* to come back. Roll with the punches.

[Lopaka]

I'd suggest spending the extra points and purchasing the new and improved 105mm umbrellas.

Of course, if he hits you with 150mm you might regret that decision.