Juju Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 Had this happen to me last year. Noone really believed me then, I think. Okay, here's what happens: An operation. First battle; my 88mm AT gun (sitting in the middle of the road in plain view of the enemy) gets knocked out by arty, targeted at that specific gun. The crew survives, suffering two casualties, they break for cover and survive the scenario. Battle two: The crew has now re-manned the gun (yes, this is a feature I wasn't even aware of until a couple of weeks ago). I am now also free to place it wherever I want. Now, get this, WHEREVER I put it -and I do mean utterly completely out of any possible LOS to any enemy unit- it will get shelled and killed by enemy arty within a couple of turns! Is that odd, or what? Now we all know CM AI technically can't 'cheat,' so I guess this is a forgotten bug. Anyway, I got a little excited seeing it happen again... So I came here, and...er, I'll go back to playing the game then, shall I? Yes, that would probably be best. Poor 88... And the only one I got, too *sob*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 That is bad luck. How many times did you reload and try again? BTS might be interested in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted December 5, 2001 Author Share Posted December 5, 2001 Lars, I've tried three times. And since I've seen this before I didn't see the need to try more. Having this happen once was already enough. I don't think any luck is involved here. I just tried again by sticking it on the very edge of the map, again out of LOS of enemy units. It took the AI some 8 turns, but the shell did fall, and they did kill that 88, again. Pillar, May be a good idea, I think I'll do that. EDIT: Oh, and Matt, if you read this; naturally I'm not begging for a CMBO patch. I know it's finished. But since this bug is so rare it may just carry over to CMBB unnoticed. [ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Juju ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Trap Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 I think the fog of war no longer applies to that unit after it is fully identified in a battle within an operation. I played an operation in which my opponent had a flak 88. Once I had firm id on that unit I was able to see its position (even when repositioned) at the start of each battle that followed, until I dispatched with it permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cos Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 This happened to me and we discussed this a while ago (and no I'm not saying you should have done a search first). At the time the thinking was the AI had locked onto the 88 in the first battle and it wouldn't release in until it was knoced out (in the 2nd battle). The positive id of the AT and then seen sounds good to me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 Was the gun hiding? I think that makes a big difference for guns. I've had my opponent spot my 57mm guns after I rotate them a couple degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Trap Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 It occurs to me that this may not be a bug in the game. The theory being that the equipment and effort needed to move such a large gun would be heard by the opposing force during the interval between battles. So even if you reposition 88 during the setup phase (after the unit has been fully identified by your opponent) the unit's new position would be known. It seems a bit far fetched but plausible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted December 5, 2001 Author Share Posted December 5, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jack Trap: It occurs to me that this may not be a bug in the game. The theory being that the equipment and effort needed to move such a large gun would be heard by the opposing force during the interval between battles. So even if you reposition 88 during the setup phase (after the unit has been fully identified by your opponent) the unit's new position would be known. It seems a bit far fetched but plausible... <hr></blockquote> No, not plausible. A tank -for instance- makes a great deal of noise. There must be plenty of times I -or the AI- positively ID'd an AFV, didn't kill it, and didn't 'see' where it would relocate in the subsequent battles. Also, this Op has a huge map. About 80 to 90% of my end of the map cannot be seen by enemy units at all. Even if the AI would have heard 'relocation sounds' it shouldn't be able to pinpoint the gun's exact location when there are some 800.000 square meters of enemy territory it can't see. So, Jack, I think your your 'loss of FOW' theory was more plausible, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 I've seen it before, and I think I know why. Notice that it only happens to the flak 88. What makes this weapon different from other guns? The 'no embark during battle' code. During the next battles setup phase it shows up with a green base, visible for all to see. I've seen the same bug with enemy minefields. Juju, is there anyway you can embark the gun for the next battle? It might erase the 'tag' (for lack of a better word). See what happens then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Was the gun hiding? I think that makes a big difference for guns. I've had my opponent spot my 57mm guns after I rotate them a couple degrees. <hr></blockquote> Rotation is death. I just had an artillery spotter team spotted when it rotated. In a campaign game, the lost man will hurt my whole team for months! It occurs to me that the "no embark" theory is correct. It might be worthwhile to ask Charles or Madmatt to look into a possible fix. Maybe allow embarking at battle beginnings or remove whatever piece of code assumes that the thing is already spotted when it really wasn't. Or make 88s unspottable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted December 5, 2001 Author Share Posted December 5, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kingfish: Notice that it only happens to the flak 88. What makes this weapon different from other guns? The 'no embark during battle' code. During the next battles setup phase it shows up with a green base, visible for all to see. I've seen the same bug with enemy minefields. Juju, is there anyway you can embark the gun for the next battle? It might erase the 'tag' (for lack of a better word). See what happens then.<hr></blockquote> Sorry, only a StuG. And that won't tow the gun of course. Incidentally, it's the 88AT model, not the Flak. Is that different? Funny you should mention enemy minefields, Kingfish. In the very same OP, only this time played from the other side I saw a minefield suddenly pop up, in the middle of the game, in a location that wasn't visible to any of my units. mighty strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlife Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 Sounds like they used some of the operations logic for pillboxes with the nonmovable guns. If that's true you should be able to recreate this with all the 88s and the big allied AA gun (which I think is immobile as well). Play a test OP with the above mentioned guns 100 meters away from each other in clear terrain with no ammo and no other units. Then in the second battle hide them both and see if they have suddenly become telepathic buddies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Juju: Incidentally, it's the 88AT model, not the Flak. Is that different? <hr></blockquote> Not if it also has the 'no embark during battle' limitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted December 5, 2001 Share Posted December 5, 2001 I'm pretty sure that all of the German 88 guns are immobile once disembarked. I know you can tow the 88FlaK, but i'm not sure 'bout the PaK43/41 and the PaK43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted December 6, 2001 Author Share Posted December 6, 2001 I just checked: no embark for either of the 88 guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 So I guess the real 'bug' is the fact that you were able to relocate the Pak between battles. It seems that equipment that was abandoned in a battle and re-manned later is made partially new. It's still the old one in the sense that immobile equipment is automatically re-spotted before the next battle, but a new unit in the sense that you can place it where you want. If we agree that the large guns cannot be repositioned, not even between battles, then re-manned guns should be padlocked in their previous positions during setup. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 I've once got a similar/same bug. Also in operation. I could see the opponents "gun?" already in the setup phase, it stayed visible during the orders phase but changed into a location marker soon after the action begun. I mailed the files and stuff to the Mad one and he was supposed to show it to the gods. Don't know what happened then.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted December 6, 2001 Author Share Posted December 6, 2001 Oh, I completely forgot to mention the following: The other case where I saw this bug it featured a US 57MM AT gun as the target. It came into the OP as a reinforcement (so I got to place it wherever I wanted), got spotted when it fired, got subsequently shelled BUT it survived the battle intact. The next battle it would be shelled and killed wherever it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts