M4 Sherman Takes Out Hetzer From Front! Huh?!

[Mark IV]

Crowd: Ahhh-hh-hh.

[Enoch]

Going back and looking at the file again it might have been more like 10-15m that the M10 and M4 were above the Hetzer.

Either way I think the M10 actually killing the Hetzer explains things.

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Enoch ]

[PiggDogg]

Enoch,

You sandbagger!! :mad: You knew the truth all along. Letting all these people, including me) waste their time and effort blabbering and surmising.

We are just crushed. We could have used this time to discover the cure for cancer or to discover the genetic key to aging. :eek:

Bad Enoch.

Cheers, Richard

[JasonC]

Well, that is close enough to the "mis-IDed tank" version, isn't it? The M-10 is the main factor, obviously.

Assuming the Hetzer was on level ground, the hill reduced the angle to the armor by about 4 1/2 degrees. Adjusted for armor quality then, the plate faced was 51mm at 55.5 degrees. If you interpolate the range as about 1/2 way between 100 and 500m, and the angle as 15% of the way from 60 to 30 degrees, then from the CM figures you'd expect (roughly, these are linear approximations for the intervening range and angle) 44mm penetration for the short 75, and 58mm for the 76 on the M-10. So the plate was about 1/6th stronger than the 75mm could defeat, but 1/8th weaker than it would need to be to usually defeat the 76mm.

[Gen-x87H]

Any tank can be killed by any other tank if the right combination of events occur."

Agreed 100%. I have lost numerous Panther Gs to Daimler ACs on frontal shots at 400 meters. They seem to get under the turret and kill the tank. There is nothing more demoralizing than a Big cat being run over by an AC.

Gen

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

There is nothing more demoralizing than a Big cat being run over by an AC.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I never spend money on big cats. I'd almost always rather have two small cats, and sneak 'em around a bit more carefully.

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Any tank can be killed by any other tank if the right combination of events occur.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the LORD looked down on the enemy panzers, and the enemy panzers did not find favor in the LORD'S eye. And lo, the LORD stretched out His hand from Heaven and smote the enemy panzers. And because the LORD stretched out His hand from Heaven, He smote the enemy panzers from above, and His hand easily penetrated the weaker top armor of the enemy panzers, destroying them. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth among the heathen, who turned their back on the LORD, and called Him "gamey."

But there was much rejoicing among the righteous, for they recalled the saying of the LORD'S prophet Matthew (in whose likeness the dome of the rock was constructed), that "it's a game, so everything is gamey." And thus the righteous rejoiced in their Victory, and gave praise to the LORD, and the LORD was well pleased.

[M Hofbauer]

ROTFL @ Hedges

[Enoch]

Andrew, now THAT was funny.

[PiggDogg]

Andrew,

That was great. & most well done. :eek: :eek:

Thanks for the laugh, not just a chuckle.

Cheers, Richard

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enoch:

To shed some more light on this mystery it is my game against the Colonel that he is talking about. Actually, it was not my plain vanilla M4 that took out the Hetzer but my M10. Both were sitting on top of a hill about 20m above the Hetzer at 256m range. The M4 bounced a shot off the front armor of the Hetzer less than a second before the the M10 killed it. If you stop the movie you can see the two shells coming in at the Hetzer. Without watching the movie in very slow motion it would be easy to miss this and mistake which tank got the kill.

So, I think this solves some of the mystery in this case.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I didn't see the other tank fire at him. I'll have to go back and look at that.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Ah, I didn't see the other tank fire at him. I'll have to go back and look at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or, as Gilda Radner would have said...

never mind.

[rexford]

75mm armed Sherman will not routinely penetrate 60mm armor at 50° slope with 85% armor quality at 250 meters.

There is a small probability at above stated conditions due to standard probability of penetration statistics. But chances will be about 1 in 6.

And that's with a 10° downward angle from firer to target. If angle is smaller probability approaches 0%.

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: rexford ]

[rexford]

On level ground, at 300m with 85% armor quality, 75mm armed Sherman has no real chance to penetrate Hetzer 60mm at 60°.

Of course, a hit at intersection of upper and lower hull would face reduced resistance.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

I have lost numerous Panther Gs to Daimler ACs on frontal shots at 400 meters. They seem to get under the turret and kill the tank. There is nothing more demoralizing than a Big cat being run over by an AC.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it is a Panther with the weak spot, then you have a 10% chance of a weak spot penetration instead of the normal 1% one. Obviously (but not said so by Steve or Charles) this is for front hits.

It occurs to me that this is a bit high, 15% of turret hits would sound better to me, when the turret hit chance is a bit loweredin CMBO.

In addition, the Panther has low quality steel.

If it was modeled right, it would be more expensive, though. The turretless Hetzer is of course discounted is CMBO.

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by redwolf:

If it is a Panther with the weak spot, then you have a 10% chance of a weak spot penetration instead of the normal 1% one.

A weak spot at a flat faced matlet gets 10% chance of being found at 90 degrees across the entire lenght (basically) ? What about in a curved mantlet, like the one in the Panther ? The weak spot is always in the part that gets hit from 90º when the gun elevation is at 0º ?

If two tanks fire at it in two separate instances does the weak spot move around for each of them so that regardless of the circumstances both have a 10% chance of hitting it eventhough either or both would not even get to aim, let alone hit, the actual weak spot IRL (beacuse it is masked by the gun for example) ?

Also, a weak spot would have to have a chance percentage of 0 at 180º (basically). If the chance is increased by 9 (or 10)% then it would get an unrealistic penetration chance of 9 (or 10)% at 180%. That would make a weak spot damage and/or kill a vehicle with a grazing hit at 0º that would not do any damage IRL.

I hope this is not the case.

In addition, the Panther has low quality steel.

Compared to what ?

The turretless Hetzer is of course discounted is CMBO.

Along with the other non-turreted assault guns and tank hunters.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

Originally posted by redwolf:

[qb]If it is a Panther with the weak spot, then you have a 10% chance of a weak spot penetration instead of the normal 1% one.

etc...

I should have said shot trap, that is the terminology used in the game.

What I posted is only what Steve once said and the only hard information I have. I don't think that the mechiasm in CMBO is much more sophisticated than that and it occurs to me that this is hurting the tanks with the shot trap. As in reality a shot trap would "catch" the projectile only under specific circumstances.