Use of Fortifications in QBs

[olandt]

I was curious to know how much AP and AT minefields and barbed wires people use when defending in QBs. Do you buy just a few, or do you buy a lot? Are 10 minefields worth the price of a squad on a 2000pt defence? They are supposed to be "force multipliers" but in a game where buying them means a smaller force, are they worth the cost?

And when was the last time someone actually bought a roadblock in a QB?

[Mr. Johnson--]

Roadblocks are good in Mod trees or heavy woods. Or good for channeling tanks towards your AP mines. Forifcations work extra good on small maps. Medium maps provide too many options.

AP mines are nice for the edges of the map, and barbed wire is good for making your enemy think you have a strongpoint where you don't actually have one.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olandt:

I was curious to know how much AP and AT minefields and barbed wires people use when defending in QBs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Barbed wire, in groups of two or three

is great on defence. I would usually

buy maybe 40 pts/1000. Just snag up

his best routes of appoach, ideally

where he won't see it until he arrives.

Then you mortar/mg him if he gets stuck

in it. If you don't have any firepower

covering the wire, it's a waste of points.

AT mines are mostly about getting lucky.

I might try buying 30 points worth once

in a while, but I think the money is

better spent on zooks or schrecks.

AP mines don't do much, IMO, so i never

buy them.

--Rett

[JasonC]

I like and use both sorts of hidden mines, as well as TRPs. I don't use bunkers because they are overpriced, and I usually don't use wire, daisy chains, or roadblocks either, because they are too easy to spot and avoid.

AP mines have to be used in quantity to be any good. Just 1-2 isolated fields will not do anything. You want 6 to 10 of the things, in a continuous belt or with only one gap, with a slightly uneven front to make them harder to avoid. Then use them to provide a "shield" for your main line of resistence, maneuvering behind them. When people hit them, they typically lose 1-2 men, but more importantly usually change direction or go to ground, too.

One important feature of AP mines is they are area effect weapons - their power multiples when "rushed". In that, they are like artillery, but they don't run out of ammo or miss, though of course they also don't move. You can use both together, with TRPs e.g., to create shifting patterns of area-denial. That can be very important to stop "power up middle" rushes, because those can work better than you might expect with enough odds.

AT mines are an exercise in prediction of enemy moves. They work best on maps with tight terrain, obviously, since there are fewer chockpoints to guess about. If they KO one tank they more than pay for themselves.

Just don't spend too much on such add ons. The defender is facing 3:2 odds as it is, and if you spend 1/4 of your points rearranging the map that becomes 2:1. It is worth it to have a platoon of infantry's worth of the stuff, because they can do some things just numbers can't.

One man's opinion...

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olandt:

I was curious to know how much AP and AT minefields and barbed wires people use when defending in QBs. Do you buy just a few, or do you buy a lot? Are 10 minefields worth the price of a squad on a 2000pt defence? They are supposed to be "force multipliers" but in a game where buying them means a smaller force, are they worth the cost?

And when was the last time someone actually bought a roadblock in a QB?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I've been wondering this myself. Even thought I've only played a couple of attack/defense scenarios, I've come to beleive that most of that stuff is overpriced. What makes it worse is that you can't see the map beforehand. Therefore, taking anything in that category is considered a risk.

If I do take fortifications, I usually take each unit in numbers of 5 or more--especially barbed wire which is only useful if you have at least 3-4 of them strung together, if not more.

Roadblocks? Yeah, right. What a waste of money.

[olandt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

I don't use bunkers because they are overpriced,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with you on the machine gun bunkers, but a pillbox with a 75mm gun can be had for 130 pts. Thats the price of a cheap tank. Placed in a proper location it can command an entire valley. They are the ONLY AT gun capable of lasting longer than 3 turns (most other guns dieing to artillery in that time). I might consider the 88mm pillbox overpriced as the 75mm should be sufficient to take out most allied tanks. In addition, pillboxes supposedly (I've never tested, just read it in the rule book) get an accuracy bonus.

[Gremlin]

I agree that mines, and to a lesser extent wire, can be very worthwile, as long as you're willing to purchase them "in bulk." They're useful for channeling troops or slowing them in the face of incoming mortar and HMG fire. Place mines where you expect infantry to make a dash for cover: that way they're fare more likely to lose a couple guys per squad than if they're slowly strolling in. Also, cover victory flag areas that you're not directly defending with mines to offer a nasty surprise. (Most defenses can't cover all the flag areas suitably; you have to choose a few at first--don't unnecessarily thin your firepower out.)

Wire is a bit more specialized than mines and less useful for the price. Use it mainly to channel troops into the fire lanes of your prepared defenses. It really comes into its own that way in city defenses, where you can block easy access to certain sides of buildings, forcing troops to run into the streets where you can mow them down with MG teams.

[Farnz]

Pete, all bunkers are 200% efficent when faced away from the impedeing nazi advance, mines don't work on germans, and barb wire improves our vision in fog. Now just tell me how to get ot antwerp or I'll whip out my 300mm rocket

[wadepm]

I like to over the field with TRP's, climb to thetop of the tallest church steeple and and do a steel rain dance!

[wadepm]

Oh God, that was some bad typing!

[Subvet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Roadblocks? Yeah, right. What a waste of money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In most cases I agree. But they can be extemely effective on some maps. Because vehicles can't go through woods/tall pines or slopes you can actually block off all vehicle traffic from one side of the map to the other!

[Warmaker]

Fortifications are only as good as your creative mind. Even the dumb-ol Daisy Chain mines can be used as a deterrent, possibly funneling armor/AFVs to an ambush you've set up.

I rarely buy bunkers. If I do it usually is a plain jain MG one, preferrably concrete. If I want a tough AT gun I would spend the points on a Hetzer or a Jagdpanzer IV/70 than a concrete one that can be knocked out. However, the concrete ATGs do fill their uses at times.

The 2 fortifications I love to use are TRPs, Barbwire. TRPs are quite convenient to everyone, especially artillery FOs. Barbwire if placed properly can put a damper on infantry rushes. They can be even a deterrent for the opposition.

Again, it all comes down to the situation and how you want to be creative.

[Slyspy]

Barbed wire. Lots of it, with the odd AP minefield in the openings. Especially useful if you are facing lots of inexperienced infantry. AT mines and roadblocks can serve to channel the enemy but in larger maps you'll need to many for them to be cost effective. I never seem to put my bunkers in the right place, which is a shame because I've been on the receiving end of effective bunkers more times than I can count (1, 2, 3....duh).

[olandt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Farnz:

Pete, all bunkers are 200% efficent when faced away from the impedeing nazi advance, mines don't work on germans, and barb wire improves our vision in fog. Now just tell me how to get ot antwerp or I'll whip out my 300mm rocket<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I hope you didn't read my other thread on 300mm rockets until AFTER you bought your forces. Right?

Don't worry, I lined the back of the map with barbed wire so any of my troops who try to run away will be encouraged not to. Don't want anyone leaving too soon.

[Farnz]

"Don't worry, I lined the back of the map with barbed wire so any of my troops who try to run away will be encouraged not to. Don't want anyone leaving too soon. "

Thats Russian tactics you gamey yank.

Yes, i did read your other thread about multiple rocket barrages and, briefly, felt guilty...