Finally got up to see "Enemy at the Gates". How will BTS use that film for CM2?

[Maximus]

Second part of the title should read, "How will BTS use refenences from that film in the development of CM2?"

After watching the film, I noticed a lot of urban fighting, both within buildings and under ground (basements and sewers). So will BTS implement a new urban fighting "module", so to speak? In other words, will we be able to fight more detailed urban battles amongst buildings?

[Michael Emrys]

To answer the question posed in the subject line, hopefully by ignoring it entirely. Here's a review that was posted on a newsgroup I frequent:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I saw the movie last night. I almost got up and walked out. Bookends for "Cross of Iron" it is not. I didn't find the characters or the conflict

compelling at all. The sets were very elaborate----having the snipers dueling in a ruined department store decorated with hammer and sickle emblems was very interesting symbolically. The digital Stukas were interesting. I wonder how

many Soviet soldiers were herded directly off the train and run down to the boats to be slaughtered in the crossing, as depicted in the movie. Not many, I

am thinking. Especially as night does pretty much follow day, and any moron could have waited to cross in the dark and avoid the Stukas. The idea

seemed to be to show the Soviet leadership as being completely stupid.

This is clearly a big budget movie with lots of extras, lots of expensive digitally enhanced scenes and some considerable attention to historical

accuracy. I don't think that having some T-34/85's two years early was too big a kick. The uniforms and equipment of both sides seemed well enough

done to me. The Soviet sniper was a curiously unaffecting character to me. Ed Harris

(the German sniper) is always great to watch, but he was wasted in this. I was also sure I'd heard some of the music before and my subsconsious

finally kicked out that some of the music was a thinly velied adaptation of the music from

"Apollo 13" in which Harris also played an important role as Gene Krantz, the head of the ground control team. I'd trade this --whole-- movie for the scene

in which he kicked the garbage can and screams, "I don't want any more--estimates--!"

The German Hanomag half tracks looked good. The MK III tanks looked pretty much on the mark. I knew as soon as he came into the scene that Bob Hoskins was Nikita Kruschev (sp). I looked around and wondered how many people knew he played a role in the Stalingrad battle, or even how many knew that he ever ran the USSR. It was interesting to hear him refer to Stalin as "the Boss."

It happens that I served with the all time US sniper for a year or so in 1974-75. This was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, who was credited

with 93 confirmed kills in Viet Nam. Gunny Hathcock once killed an NVA soldier a

-mile- (@ 1.5 KM) away, using a .50 cal MG in the single shot mode. And of course in the Marine Corps, rifle marksmanship is heavily stressed. I saw some things in the film that didn't ring true about real sniping. You don't support your rifle barrel, either on the ground or with a support (as Ron Perlman's character did on an ironing board). That is because when a rifle fires, a wavelike motion moves down the barrel and cracks it in the same way you crack a whip. Any touching of the barrel at the instant of firing is going to throw off your accuracy. I winced when Zaitzev's second was banging his rifle along in the culvert. That could easily knock the sight out of alignment and

make it useless for long distance shooting. The actor that played Zaitsev did a good job seeming to be the wolf hunting peasant who had just that sense of what would work and what would not.

The Russian officer Danilov was last seen (by me at least)as the Bard in "Shakespeare in Love". It was just a little too big a jump for him. It just didn't work. The whole movie didn't work.

The paper here in Atlanta compared the opening of this film to the

opening of "Saving Private Ryan." I was expecting a real film event. Instead I was never engaged and just waiting for the whole thing to get over with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

[QB]Second part of the title should read, "How will BTS use refenences from that film in the development of CM2?"[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm... perhaps they will supply posters from the movie in convenient strips in the BTS restroom. That is about all the thing is good for. I highly recommend you read the actual book for a better account. Wililam Craig's style mirrors that of Cornelius Ryan.

MrSpkr

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Hopefully, not at all.

[Panzer Leader]

I liked the movie.

Man, some people are just NEVER satisfied...

[Skipper]

By the way, "The Boss" is a wrong translation. In fact Stalin was commonly nicknamed as "hozyain", which means something between "The Master" and "The Owner".

Like in "A bear is the master of the woods".

[Kurtz]

I think they should let the graphic style in CM2 be inspired by the final credits of the movie. (You know, after the movie, when all roles are shown).

And have an opening movie in WW2 newsreel-style, with the Axis Empire spreading across the globe like ink. That would look cool!

[Mattias]

Did this film really add anything to our understanding of Stalingrad type urban warfare?

As far as I could see the fighting scenes where entirely cosmetic and reflected only in the most superficial way the tactics employed in reality.

In my opinion the movie "Stalingrad" did a much better job in this sense, at least comparatively so.

M.

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

Second part of the title should read, "How will BTS use refenences from that film in the development of CM2?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure what you mean? Why would BTS want to use anything from the movie? The only reference I would expect BTS to use to develop the Eastern Front version of Combat Mission is technical information based on fact. Historical accounts that are as accurate as can be found and experience from designing Combat Mission beyond Overlord.

Historical accuracy or as “close to” as information and computer programming allow not Hollywood hype, which is what I am expecting from BTS. A good read to learn of sniping and its tactics/effects is “Five Fingers” by Gayle Rivers” it is not a World War Two account but is very enlightening and informative concerning tactics employed and effects of sniping.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

Did this film really add anything to our understanding of Stalingrad type urban warfare?

M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. It is clear how the Soviets fought (and won) the battle of Stalingrad:

1. Get a bunch of conscripts.

2. Ship them to Stalingrad in cattle cars.

3. Unload across Volga rom city.

4. Transport across Volga while being bombed by Stukas. Do not wait until night, do not have any AA guns anywhere.

5. Giver every 2nd (surviving) man a gun.

6. Run them out into the street. Do not use any cover, deception, or bother going into any of the myriad of buildings all over the place. Do not support attacker with machine guns (these will be needed for the next step, see below), artillery, smoke, armor, or anything at all.

7. When few survivors return from doomed attack, shoot them.

It seems obvious why the Soviets won. They saved on food and shelter costs by not needing to feed or house 90% of the soldiers who fought for them in the battle.

Jeff Heidman

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Heidman ]

[David Aitken]

What the hell?? Maximus, you've been on this forum long enough, have you actually noticed any of what goes on? Did you miss the huge Enemy At The Gates thread a month or two ago that was locked? Do we really need another one?

And what makes you think BTS would use a work of fiction and fantasy a source for their serious research? Are you pretending to be a newbie, or what??

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

What the hell?? Maximus, you've been on this forum long enough, have you actually noticed any of what goes on? Did you miss the huge Enemy At The Gates thread a month or two ago that was locked? Do we really need another one?

And what makes you think BTS would use a work of fiction and fantasy a source for their serious research? Are you pretending to be a newbie, or what??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I'm sorry I missed said thread. So whatcha gonna do? Sue me?

I'm just saying that I finally got up to see the show and during it, I'm thinking how BTS might and probably will change the emphasis on urban fighting. That's all I'm saying. Because as CBMO is now, urban warfare, to be honest, is very abstracted. We have large stone buildings with abstracted floors and cover. IMHO, we can not have realistic urban warfare in CM2 without a serious reworking of the house-to-house combat model.

Besides, I feel like a newbie with this all new Forum anyway, so there!