Infantry vs. all arms

[JasonC]

In a recent thread, Pascal di Folco commented on a certain match up of orders of battle that the side with a whole battalion of infantry - but not much else - should have no difficulty beating a rival force with only a company, but with heavy artillery and tank support. Even with the latter the dug in defenders, with some fortifications available.

I thought this was interesting enough as a seperate proposition, to deserve discussion or testing. I've made a scenario based on it, and (more loosely) on my impression of certain early fights in the Bulge. I present the forces here for others to play around with. Those who want the actual file can have it if they email me.

The time is December 1944, day, weather overcast, ground wet (damp optional, for those who hate bogging). The terrain is farmland with heavy woods and modest hills; you may have to generate a few maps to get one with adequate roads across it, which there should be. All units are regular quality. The fight should be 30 minutes long, and the map should be 800m wide by 1200m long, east to west. The German attackers should have 200m to set up in along the east edge, then 300m of no man's land, then 700mm for the US defenders to set up in.

German attackers -

1 Security Battalion, minus the PAK platoon (2x50mm PAK, 2xLMG, HQ)

8 Panzerschreck

2 Hummel (actually SP 150mm sIG)

3 SPW-251/9

This really represents a VG formation infantry battalion, but without tons of SMGs (just a few more than standard rifle infantry), supported by assault guns from its regimental cannon companies.

There should not be more than 4 150mm hollow charge © shells for the 2 Hummels, combined. Each of the SPWs should have 5-8 75mm hollow charge shells. Notice, the only FO available is the single 81mm FO from the heavy weapons company.

US defenders, on map and dug in -

1 Rifle Company

1 extra .50 cal HMG

3 105mm FO

2 TRP

1 Roadblock

8 AP Mines or Wire (any mix)

US reinforcements, arrive turns 5-10 -

1 M4A3 105 HVSS Sherman

1 M4A3 75 (W) Sherman

3 M4A3 Sherman

These should arrive in 2 sections, with the 75(W) and 1 plain Sherman arriving turn 5, and the 105 and other 2 plain Shermans arriving turn 10, from the western edge along a road.

The US force is 1/3rd infantry and fortifications, 1/3rd artillery and TRPs, and 1/3rd armor reinforcements. The unit sizes are historical - an infantry company, a tank platoon, and support by an artillery battalion for a few minutes of fire. The initial odds are 3:2 in point terms, the standard for attackers. Once the US armor arrives the point odds fall to 1:1. The first 2 tanks leave the point odds 5:4.

Fights rather like this occurred in the first two days of the Bulge, as German VG infantry formations supported only by their own assault guns, tried to break through a system of US company level infantry strongpoints supported by artillery, and by small armor reserves reacting to reports of attacks. Most of the German artillery had already fired its extensive prep and was quiet - some while displacing forward, others because they didn't know how far forward their own infantry had reached.

I hope this match up is interesting.

[Redwolf]

The notion that maxing out in infantry is a recipe for victory and that cheap howitzer vehicles are the only vehicles worth owning is (or was) very common on the Tournamenthouse ladder. This is also said to reflect well the operational purpose of tanks, that tanks are of little value in a set-piece fighting like this, support and support vehicles is what matters.

However, I am a bit sceptical about this, both for real life and for ladder play. A decent group of AT-capable vehicles (like three Shermans or more) can strip the support from the attacker quickly. And even less Shermans than in this example can shoot up a battlation badly. In an ME. The infantry battaltion on the attack has few chances unless visibility is limited.

The only hope for the attacker should be to overwhelm the defender's initial force quickly enough so that the Schrecks get decent positions to block the Shermans from most valuable positions, leaving enough uncovered edges around the flags for the infantry to hide.

In this case, there is the additional quirk that the Shermans are quite immobile in difficult ground. The outcome of this battle will depend to a major extend on the availability of roads between interesting positions for the Shermans. A Cromwell platoon would be more useful here, but I guess there was no choosing in the Army in 1944

I hope these thoughts are not too concerned with game-only issues. One thing were the game matches reality quite nicely, BTW, is the victory point situation in this scenario. The attackers will obviously loose a lot of men and this may turn into a major problem even if the objective is gained. In the game, because the knockout points may add up to be worth more than the flags, in reality because you cannot replace the men easily. Please make sure that your scenario has enough flags.

I am highly interested in bulge infantry fighting, BTW, if you have further thoughs, please share them. If anyone likes to play this, redwolf@cons.org

[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Jarmo]

Given that the Shermans would have a road to come through, I'd take the defenders. But it'd be a tough fight, I recon.

[Redwolf]

If the way from the Axis setup zone to the flags is short enough (game term) respectivly if the Axis force had enough cover or time to arrive in strike distance unexhaust (reality term), I think the Axis will be in position in time.

Another key would be to let the Hummels blow away at anything you spot initially and hide them once the Shermans enter the battlefield. A single 57mm AT gun in the initial defender's zone would ruin that plan, of course.

The scenario should have the reinforcment arrival zone deep enough that the Shermans are not beamed in in Panzerfaust distance. Some road in the rear to possible reinforcement point would also be realistic, as real-world commanders could also make a save guess that reinforcements use the streets.

[Mr. Johnson--]

I'd like to test it, JC, send it my way.

I love the idea of using a security battlaion for a VG battalion, to get rid of those massive numbers of SMGs. Wish I had thought of that.

[JasonC]

Good point about the 57mm ATG. I'd add the following to the scenario -

For play balance, if you find the Americans are too weak, add one 57mm ATG to their starting on-map OOB. If you find the Germans are too weak, add a 4th SPW-251/9, delay the US tank arrival 5 minutes (to turns 10 and 15), or both.

One thing many haven't mentioned about the match up is the key role of the American artillery. 3 105mm FOs and 2 TRPs is a powerful artillery arm. Fired too soon or at uncertain locations, or small scouting parties, it will not prove decisive, and once those rounds are expended the infantry point odds are 3:1 against the Americans. But if they catch whole companies, they can ruin the attacking infantry's day in a matter of minutes. They ought to suffice to buy time for the tanks to show up, used properly.

To avoid the shells, the Germans can't bunch up and must use the terrain to the fullest, trying to mask their movements as much as possible. This is key. Tightly bunched, the Germans might run over the less numerous American defenders, but they can't afford to bunch tightly as long as so much artillery firepower remains suspended over their heads.

When planning the US defense, use the TRPs, mines or wire, and open ground areas covered by MGs, platoons, and FO lines of sight, to construct a "shield" ahead of the infantry main body. A few getting through it the Americans can stand, but they have to be able to break up a concentrated rush.

[JasonC]

To Jarmo and redwolf - pardon me for saying "why don't you and him fight", but perhaps you've got a game between you there, if you have time for it? Jarmo favors the Americans, and redwolf favors the Germans. Take those sides and see. If you are interested just holler and I'll send you both the scenario file.

To Mr. Johnson - on the way...

[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]</p>

[Jarmo]

I could give it a go. Redwolf, are you in?

I think Jasons ready scenario should serve us fine.

[JasonC]

On the way Jarmo. If redwolf isn't up for it, you might play Mr. Johnson - or me if it comes to that.

[guachi]

To a fellow Jason,

sounds like an intriguing idea. When I play the AI in QBs I make up scenarios like you have done. Rather than the same units all the time, I try to make up some semi-plausible scenario and see what happens.

I'd be interested in getting my ass kicked by someone. I'm not all that good at CM but I'll give it a shot.

Either side is fine with me.

Jason

guachi_cm@yahoo.com is my e-mail address.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jarmo:

I could give it a go. Redwolf, are you in?

I think Jasons ready scenario should serve us fine.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, please mail your setup to redwolf@cons.org. It is not that I believe the claim that an all-infantry force is superiour in CMBO, but this looks harder for the U.S.

I take some time for my setup move and terrain study, but expect fluent moves afterwards.

I think I should point out that I will not exploit the CMBO bug that I can overrun MGs by running towards them, you probably want to know that for setup. I will walk towards them and do anything else required to destroy them, though :-]

We probably want to make the reinforcements arrivial time random by +/- one turn. Are thre enough flags (70% of the more expensive force value or so)?

[xerxes]

Interesting matchup but you really should add a little randomness to each of the forces. Perfect force knowledge reduces realism.

3x105s + 2 trps is some serious arty. The heavy woods should still have enough LOS to hit the german infantry with airbursts. The SPAs aren't too great with the short ranges, the zooks and the 105 around.

Nice deep defensive terrain. Once the tanks arrive they'll play hell with any open spaces, all they have to do is stay out of shreck range.

I'd bet the amis will stop this attack.

-marc

[Jarmo]

I got the scenario from Jason, so I don't know if we have randomness or not. That's random enough for me.

The map looks nice enough, plenty of trees and hills. I'll post some pics here after I've sent my setup to redwolf.

[Jarmo]

Hokay, these are from my end.

Suddenly the amount of men I have seems very, very small..

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]

edit. where are those &*# pics?!!

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]

Finally!

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]</p>

[Dogface21]

This will be cool to watch! Will you post screens as the game progresses? You and Redwolf might want to agree to not check eachothers posts, but it would be fun for a play-by-play and analysis. Oh yeah BTW, scale up the units a little, they're hard to discern. Thanks

[Agua Perdido]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

[...mostly-infantry vs. well-mixed...]

I hope this match up is interesting.<hr></blockquote>

I fought a QB similar to this matchup recently. I attacked with:

1 SS Rifle '44 Battalion (comes with 81mm, 120mm FOs and about 12 HMGs)

1 150mm rocket FO

2 StuH42s

1 Hetzer

1 251/9

1 Wespe

all regulars (I think I had a sharpshooter or a panzershreck in there, too, to finish off the points)

The defender had:

1 Vet Brit Rifle Co'y

3 Vet Vickers MGs

2 Reg 3" mortars

2 Vet 6-lbers

2 Reg 120mm (or whatever the heavy Brit mortar is) FOs

2 Reg 95mm Cromwells

3-4 minefields, maybe a TRP or two.

My attack force is a bit more "balanced" than Jason's example (more arty), and the defenders don't have as much tank or arty support. Still, it was a pretty close-run thing. The defender set up a very strong position in a village and its approaches, and punished me for only having 1 AT asset (the Hetzer). My infantry suffered very heavily on the approach from arty, support weapons and tank fire. The maneuver platoons were easily at >50% casualties by game end.

What turned the tide was the Hetzer finding a hull-down spot late in the game where it could KO the Cromwells and the 6-lbers, allowing my remaining StuH and the Wespe to go to work supressing the strongpoints. My remaining infantry strength was enough to finish 'em off.

If he'd had more armor and arty (as in Jason's setup) or I'd had less luck with the Hetzer of Doom (meaning his tanks would've kept plugging away, and/or his guns would've knocked out or scared off my other StuH and the Wespe), the infantry couldn't have done it alone. In the setup Jason posits, my money's on the Amis. Mind you, his play will need to be exact, but I think the defender has the upper hand.

Agua Perdido

[Redwolf]

I glanced the pictures have setup positions. I avoided to look further, if I am not supposed to see them please tell me so.

[Jarmo]

Go ahead and bomb those setup areas.

Nothing much to see in those pics.

[Jarmo]

The setup's are done and I've sent out my first orders to wolf.

I have all too few men to defend the way I'd like to, so I've been forced to make compromises. Let's see how it works out.

[Jarmo]

Looks like Redwolf's taken a two-route approach with his infantry.

The First half is approaching through the elevated "wooded lane" in the middle, Hummels are giving some smoke cover for this bunch.

The second half approach along the (my) right map edge and have just come across my barbed wire I've pulled over the road over there.

And finally, there are a few scouts running along the left map edge.

[xerxes]

Being a good player, I doubt redwolf has revealed the true line of his attack.

-marc

[Redwolf]

I tried to assassinate one of Jarmo's spotters and on my right flank the world is now so silent that I hear the birds sing. That would be too good to be true.

I can't comment on my true line of attack for obvious reasons

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Redwolf]

I am now reaching the main north/south road.

My right side is under control, with support AFVs still covering my units. [update while writing, they met a platoon, but no decisive action so far]

My left force reaches the road, but in the area the terrain is a slope down towards the street, which causes considerable headache as I outrun my AFV and fire team support and may face ambushes, all while I don't have time to be careful.

Speaking of hurry, according to pre-battle air recon, tanks were near enough the battlefield that forward elements should already be in the area by now. That is not good, as my support AFVs have to be extra careful now, this objective is not worth taking any considerable losses.

My infantry support teams are utterly useless, as Jarmo obviously wasn't stupid enough to try to intercept me early and is out of LOS of my starting positions and I have no transport asserts. Artillery fire is still sporadic, I hope Jarmo doesn't have an extra-clever plan for it.

[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[JasonC]

"My infantry support teams are utterly useless"

HMGs and 81mm mortars are slow, certainly. But not stationary. In the real fighting, they had to hoof it through woods and up ridges, but managed to do so. Early on, though, redwolf is right - it can take 10 minutes to get them to reasonable positions, if the Americans don't deploy too far forward.

[Jarmo]

About turn 10.

On (my) right, Wolfie captured two rightmost flags. I didn't have any defenders there except a spotter and a zook. I withdrew the spotter in time but the zook was overrun.

Now he's engaging my infantry and two shermans at the crossroads. I'm dropping some 105 somewhere around his infantry.

On left, things are not going too well. Wolf sidestepped from the wooded lane to the left and almost caught my spotter. The spotter was nearly blown out before by a 150mm shot. I assume Reddie just hammered a likely location and guessed right. I had to move a platoon forward to save the spotter. A near miss by a 150mm killed half of them. I've since withdrawn the platoon from the woods right next to the road to the one before the big flag.

Dropping some arty here too.