illo Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Im not sure of this but i think i havent seen geman tanks with tungsten ammo in CM. Didnt germans first use tungsten? Ive read accounts that 39mm Paks at france were supplied with tungsten ammo at 1940. Can some one brighten thís up a little? thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I dont know for sure illo, but I think they simply ran out Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 illo wrote: Im not sure of this but i think i havent seen geman tanks with tungsten ammo in CM. Didnt germans first use tungsten? That one is easy to answer. If you want to use tungsten, you have to have tungsten. Germany didn't have. I've read accounts that 39mm Paks at france were supplied with tungsten ammo at 1940. Germans developed tungsten ammo for most AT capable gun types they had. However, there simply wasn't enough tungsten available for widespread use, especially after the war had lasted for few years. Though, I think that an occasional Pz-IV or Stug should have one or two tungsten rounds, but that's about the limit. AFAIK, the only time that Stugs in Finnish use used tungsten rounds was at Kuuterselkä. Then, at least the vehicles of the II platoon of the 1st company each had few tungsten rounds. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Something that puzzled me is that when you buy a 50mm AT gun (maybe a Puma as well, I can't remember) and look at the unit info screen it gives penetration values for tungsten, even though there is no German tungsten in the game. Oh, and I think KD is basically correct. By June '44 the Germans were suffering shortages of many metals that go into the making of armor and AP ammo. That is why the quality ratings of many late war German tank's armor is at 85%. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I'm sure the 50mm will make a reappearance in CM2. Perhaps limited Tungsten will be available then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDesertFox Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 They certainly would have loved to use tungsten but they couldn´t. From 1941 the germans shifted more and more tungsten to the production of higher caliber ammo. At first to the production of 5cm PzGr40 and then to the 7,5cm PzGr40 and the 8,8cm. Until in 1943 nearly all production of tungsten cored ammo stopped due to the shortages. So you don´t see any german tanks using tungsten in CM because the german stocks were empty and the few rounds that were perhaps left were better used against IS-II, KV-I/II and friends on the Eastfront. Remember you don´t need Tungsten to brew up a Ronson lighter. Helge Oh, just in case, David Honner as some info on the issue [ http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html ] More details can be found in Walter Hahn´s bible about german waepons including production stats etc... ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: TheDesertFox@gmx.net WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Yeah you would have thought securing a tungsten mine or 2 would have been a good idea since the stuff is so deadly to tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 tungsten (W) was reserved for machine tools. As you might imagine, it is very hard and is needed for cutting metal. As the war ground on, the germans had no source and therefore couldnt afford to shoot chunks of it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :USERNAME:: As the war ground on, the germans had no source and therefore couldnt afford to shoot chunks of it around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That got a chuckle. "Damnit, Hanz, quit shooting the tungsten at people! We need that stuff!" The Germans should have salvaged it from knocked out AFVs that had been destroyed by Allied tungsten armed rounds. Grab their chunks. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Tungsten is primarily mined where? Thought it was Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 This is still a controvercial subject as its not clear exactly when T production ended or was merely limited to specific rounds. Adding more confusion the Germans produced PzGr.40/43 & PzGr.40/44 APCR rounds for some guns. Their are also some cases on both the Eastren front & Westren Front in 1945 where PzGr.40 rounds werre identified in German AA's; as used against ISU-152's,IS-2's & Jumbo's. Best guesses are that some German tanks had 2 - 5 T rounds they carried for emergency's etc similar to the US tank T situation their was no abundance of T rounds in tank forces Ie, the TD's in US forces had priority on T rounds & even they didn't get that much. German tanks after the appearence of the lang guns Ie, 7.5 cm KwK.40 L/43 & L/48. 7.5 cm KwK.42 L/70, 8.8 cm KwK.36 L/56 & 8.8 cm KwK.43 L/71; rarely had to use any other round, then their PzGr.39 APCBC round though, so T was not as critical as it wa to Allied tanks. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 01-11-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 The Germans had no domestic supply of tungsten. But they did have a source of supply - ore from Spain and Portugal. That accounted for 63% of all German use of the stuff from 1941 to 1944. The Allies devoted more effort to cutting off the supply of tungsten to Germany than to any other metal, by sending agents to buy it up, by threatening embargos and retaliations, by intercepting shipments cloak and dagger style, by bombing trains once they got into France. But the Germans responded by economizing on uses of it (which certainly did restrict them, obviously), with the result that at the end of 1944 they still had stockpiles adequate for 2 years consumption at the rate they were then using it. Source is Alan S. Milward, War Economy and Society 1939-1945, Chapter 9 Economic Warfare, page 314. The Germans also had shortages of manganese - they economized and lived of of captured Soviet stocks (before the invasion they got it from the Russians under the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact trade deals), and small amounts from Slovokia and Hungary. They were also short of nickel - very important for some applications - but they got supplies of it from the Finns after 1941, as well as seizing stocks of it in conquered areas. Chrome was tight, and the Allies bought the entire Turkish production stream (the pre war source for Germany), so they lived off of smaller supplies from the Balkans. If the Allies had known the entire state of the German metals situation, they would have put a larger effort into cutting off Spain, invading northern Finland, and if possible entering the Balkans or at least aiming the partisan activities there better and supporting them with bombing of the limited Balkan rail net. Doing so probably would have starved the Germans of non-ferrous metals by mid 44 at the latest. Similarly, if the Allies had known and managed it, cutting off Swedish supplies of iron ore would have cut the German steel industry in half. But they did not know what all the shortages and weaknesses in the German supply picture actually were. They knew tungsten and chrome were tight and tried to restrict them through pressure on the Spanish and the Turks, but with only limited success. They also, of course, eventually focused successfully on oil production, but even there the success was less than it might have been because they did not have enough information about the Germany economy. (In particular, they did not understand how dependent high-octane av-gas was on just a few vunerable synthetic hydrogenation plants). But there was not absolute shortage of tungsten. It did need to be economized, and machine tools and metallurgy were the highest priority use. AP shells made with it were definitely needed more on the Russian front than in the west, to enable 50mm ATGs (thousands of them, and all that many of the line infantry divisions had) to handle T-34s and the like. But as mentioned, they had years worth, of the low rate of consumption they had dropped use of the stuff down to anyway, remaining in stockpiles at the end of 1944, largely because of Spanish and Portugese ore supplies in the preceeding 3 years. For what it is worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted January 11, 2001 Author Share Posted January 11, 2001 Thx people. Very much knowledge and good guesses here Yes i understand Hans shooting tungsten if he was really ed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: Something that puzzled me is that when you buy a 50mm AT gun <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The 50mm AT gun does come with tungsten ammo with v1.1 ------------------ No bastard has ever won a war by dying for his country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Is "Wolfram" german for tungsten? I thought I read somewhere that Germany produced a small amount of "Wolfram tipped" AP rounds. Anyone heard anything about this? (I've never heard of a mixed metal AP shot, or a tungsten coated AP round, so it may be bogus, i just remembered reading this exact phrase at some point). ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest morjit Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 50mm AT guns have had a small chance to get tungsten ammo since V 1.0 ------------------ Jason Combat Mission Canadian HQ cmhq.tzo.com/canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banshee: Is "Wolfram" german for tungsten? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Wolfram is the name of the ore, tungsten in the name of the metal. That is, wolfram is rock with flecks of tungsten all through it, which is the natural state in which tungsten is found, before milling and refining it. When someone talks about a wolfram-tipped round they certainly mean tungsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Yep I can confirm. I've just played a TCP/IP game with v1.1 and my 50mm AT Gun had ONE whole round of tungsten available to it. It was so precious that it was never fired throughout the battle (never was a target against which it was needed). It has been ordered that the round will conduct a morale boosting tour of the front line so expect it to appear in a battle near you soon. Just make sure you don't use it either! ------------------ "We're not here to take it - We're here to give it" General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 The Ju 87G-1/2 used Wolfram core shells for their 37mmAP rounds as well. Hopefully we will be able to buy Hans Rudel for Air support in CM-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 I believed the germans late in the war moved away from machine cutting to oxy-acet cutting wherever possible. This might have freed up some supplies for the guns in 1944-45. I have read of many "souped up" ammo references and the like and would imagine that something like the JSII's would need something better from 88L56 and 75L48 guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 "Wolfram is the name of the ore, tungsten in the name of the metal..." If is that so, why the chemical symbol is the W ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Here is a huge article on the war time uses and consumption of wolfram. http://www.findarticles.com/m2082/3_61/55426752/p1/article.jhtml ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanaka: "Wolfram is the name of the ore, tungsten in the name of the metal..." If is that so, why the chemical symbol is the W ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tunsten is extracted from wolframite, hence the W on the periodic table. Thank the wife for that one. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpack Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Well, up until June 22nd, 1941, the Germans had a good supply of tungsten, as it was one of the major items involved in the economic packages delivered by the Russians. IIRC, (And I probably don't <G>) the Germans got up around 80% of their supply through Russia right before they invaded. Not sure exactly where the Russians had their mines...in the Urals I suppose, which would have left the Germans still out in the cold even if they had completed their planned conquest. It would seem strange for Hitler, who was so fixated on economic factors by his seige mentality, to overlook this, but then, I could be wrong about the location of the Russian supplies, perhaps up toward the Finland/Murmansk area. ------------------ It is nearly always better to be beaten and learn, rather than to win and take no new knowledge from that victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts