Jumbo's - how do i beat these elephant skinned Goliaths

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

I have recently been handed my ass on a plate in a 1,500pt QB when i faced a pair of Jumbo's.

Now i regard myself as a fairly good player and i believed i had the hardware to do the job. As the Axis player i had 300 points to spend on armour and i also purchased several AT guns for good measure. I purchased ;

2 x Hetzer

1 x Jagdpanzer 1V

1 x Puma

1 x Flame Halftrack

1 x 88mm AT Gun

1 x 76mm AT Gun

1 x 88mm Puppachen

The rest were infantry and arty. We played on a medium map so long distances were not involved.

The 2 Jumbo's single handedly took out all 3 guns while ricochet after ricochet bounced off their hulls and turrets. The mighty 88mm AT gun must have hit the jumbos 5 or 6 times from 1,000 meters without doing any damage at all. Each of my 3 Guns had a HQ unit in command radius but the Jumbo's took them all out one by one.

My armour i placed in hull down positions and plinked away - so many ricochets, the Jumbos took out 1 Hetzer and the Puma to add to the 3 AT guns.

At the end of the Game my second Hetzer and the Jagdpanzer 1V were still alive after bouncing off many ricochets from their own highly sloped frontal armour as well as bouncing many shots off the Jumbo's. In the last few turns they immobilized one Jumbo and scored a gun hit on the other. The Jumbo's were not even in hull down positions.

I was really powerless to stop them, my opponent is a good player and he kept the Jumbos well back behind his infantry so there was no way i could flank him - even if i was to try the turretless slow Axis armour would never get away with it. As a last minute attempt i close assaulted them with 2 platoons of infantry, but they were slaughtered.

So the question is how do you tackle these beasts effectively? Yes i know all the arguments about flanking and so on to score rear hull or maybe side hull penetrations, but if you have a good opponent who keeps his armour covered by infantry what hardware do you need to defeat them ?

Now i fear facing a pair of these again. Any constructive help or advice would be welcome. I generally do not buy large heavy tanks, except the Panther G, and i really do not want to enter every game with a King Tiger just incase my opponent buys Jumbo's.

Before you make suggestions remember that the axis only have 300 armour points to spend - and before you start the game you do not know what your opponent is going to purchase so you need to be prepared for any situation.

Maybe my 88mm AT gun was unlucky?

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[This message has been edited by Captitalistdoginchina (edited 03-02-2001).]

[chrisl]

Try some smoke between his infantry and his tanks-- the tanks either have to come up to support the infantry, or you can abuse them with your own tanks. You may also be able to force him to show you the side of a hull or turret with the smoke.

You can also move around a lot and force the Jumbos expose a flank to at least one of yours at all times. It's a little harder when he's got turrets and you don't, though.

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[Guest Rommel22]

I had the same problem, I was facing 2 jumbos and a cromwell. Same tactic, tanks behind inf. I bought a Lynx and a 20mm AC. Well I sent these two on a death ride thinking they would knock these out, I look at that data tables and looked fairly good, cromwell 32mm armor in the back would be penetrated by the 20mm, no luck though. The lynx and the AC served as a good destraction though, I rolled up my 2 stugIV and took the Cromwell and imobelizing the Jumbo. The second Jumbo took one stug out and imobelized the second one.

The abttle has ended, yet me and the opponents saved the game. But I can bet the Stug is good as dead. The best think against a Jumbo is a KT or JT I guess.

The inf. battle I am winning against him since I have 12 platoons and he only has 3 or 4, I counted 4 so far. So the inf. battle is won for me, but the inf. can get slaughtered by his Jumbos.

Thanx for listening!

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[Guest hal9000]

Hi Commander,

In my experience, the German high velocity gun should be able to penetrate the Jumbo frontally. I've killed Jumbo's with the JpzIV/L70 in the game I played with the Stonewall Brigade, and I recently took out Mantaray's Jumbo with a front shot from a Panther G. If you wish, we can continue this discussion in private.

[Forever Babra]

Even experienced players can be sucked into exposing their flanks, and that's about the only thing you can do against Jumbos. By the sounds of your AAR, your AT assets were all up front, where the assault tanks could engage and defeat them, which is kinda the point behind assault tanks.

It was Pillar (damn his ass) who taught me the value of the defence in depth and the mobile defence. Actually he whooped my (attacking) ass so bad I just never forgot the lesson

Try placing your AT deep to the rear, and well hidden, leaving only a thin screen for defence. Forget the VLs; pretend they're not there. "But my opponent will roll over my forward defence!" you say. Yes, he will, but what then? It doesn't matter if he comes up the centre or sides, he must then turn left or right or both to go after remaining VLs, and since most players don't bother to halt and reorganize, chances are he'll be spread out and vulnerable. Only then should your AT assets reveal themselves (and I include TDs in this category). Some well-sprung AT ambushes from the flank can then be followed up by a general counterattack to regain lost ground.

[crocky]

Comrade General

You now know how I felt when you sat on that hill in that scenario we played with your 2 Jumbos

What goes around comes around.

[Guest MantaRay]

Hal, there is one thing on your Panther G taking out my Jumbo though, it was what 200m, and the only reason I moved him up in the first place is because the battle wasnt going to be at a distance where you chose to fight it at.

But the jumbo is more than a hard kill at 1000m for any gun, and the KT may or may not survive a hit from a T round from these Allied monsters. I have more than a healthy respect for them, but I think if you can get 2 platoons close enough to the Jumbo, bring a nice Schrek team or two to help in his demise.

I think CDIC just misses his Wasps hehe.

Ray

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[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

Ahh the Red Army (Rugged Defence Ladder) comrades are out in force today. Welcome Comrades.

Comrade Crocky,

We were playing a blind scenario on that occasion and so i did not choose to buy the Jumbo's - but i was not complaining either he he.

Babra,

This was a Meeting Engagement and my AT guns were at the back of the field. My Opponent did not have any "assault Tanks" - only the 2 Jumbo 76's. It was the 2 Jumbo's who took out all my assets

Comrade Hal9000,

Thanks for the tip on JagdPanzer 1V L70. E-mail more info to our HQ.

Comrade MantaRay,

Yes indeed at close range you can take out the Jumbo's, but a Jumbo behind infantry at 1,000 meters is tough to take out...and yes i miss my beloved Wasps

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[This message has been edited by Captitalistdoginchina (edited 03-02-2001).]

[Moriarty]

CDIG, perhaps it was pure luck, but I had a puppchen in ambush at 250m take out a Jumbo. First shell got his attention, second did the trick.

My thanks again to Geier for pulling the beast 10m forward and stopping on the ambush point.

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"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change." -- Oddball

"Crap." -- Moriarty

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

This was a Meeting Engagement and my AT guns were at the back of the field. My Opponent did not have any "assault Tanks" - only the 2 Jumbo 76's. It was the 2 Jumbo's who took out all my assets

Well then, you just suck, don't you? And Jumbos are assault tanks.

[Guest MantaRay]

Does the Convert enemy troops spell work in 1.12? If all else fails, that may be the secret German weapon hehe.

And the Red Army is out in force today like always(Except with my game with Bates, that mofo with a thousand vehicles )

Ray

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[Guest hal9000]

Mantaray, point taken. I usually don't like taking my slow-turreted German tanks into those kinds of confines anyway. Makes me nervous

[GriffinCheng+]

I have never come across any Jumbo tanks in QB, but from your to&e, I think a real tank with a descent gun would have done the job like a Panther.

In your case, from the AAR, I think u should lure the enemy tanks into your ambush pos, cause Hetzers and JPIV are excellent ambush weaon, but well, it is easier said than done. How about trying that again in a QB and I use those Jumbo tanks?

Griffin.

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Wisbech_lad]

Or just play Allied, and get use to the pain of facing stuff you can't kill from the front.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Why not go where his Jumbo/s aren't? Unless you're playing on farmland, there will be hills. Even the modest hill maps which most people play offer many places to hide, not to mention behind the buildings.

Why fight fire with fire when he's got the bigger flamethrower? He obviously wants you to come out and challenge his Ubertanks, so don't. Concentrate on staying away from the Jumbos and try to eliminate as many of his other tanks and men as possible. He will either have to move the Jumbo from his chosen location to somewhere he doesn't want to go or keep the Jumbo there and watch the action play out without his expensive toy being a part of it.

With all those points sitting there in the back not being used, you will probably have the upper hand as you move your tanks forward to take on whatever he has left in that department. Hopefully, you'll be able to end up with a situation where he has the Jumbo and a few men while you have more men and a few tanks. From there, you do the same thing until all he's left with is his Jumbo which will now be blind because of the lack of scouts. That's when you sneak up your AT teams on his flanks.

And, if he decides to move the Jumbo to adjust to the situation, then you have at least succeeded in forcing him out of his desired position, possibly making it easier for you to flank him with AT teams or a speedy tank.

If you find yourself in a position to charge the tank with infantry, just launch some smoke in front of it and charge. The Jumbo will have to button up and won't be able to see Jack squat until you peer in through the firing slit to say hello.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[Guest MantaRay]

You dont like Jacksons in hull down positions I gather I actually think CDIC would use 2 Cromwells and the rest wasps with no infantry, and kick ass with it hehe. I would bet he has dreams about their use, and he is the only person in the time I have been here that has great effectiveness when he uses them.

I have no real idea how to use them to be honest. I am not real good with the British (or any other country for that matter, ask Bates) and I should start learning to play them. I have beaten them on a few occasions, but I am looking forward to using a ARVE someday. I think that is the coolest vehicle in the entire game, and the Croc is right behind it. So the Brits must kick ass.

Back to topic, the Jumbo for me, is usually a big waste. It seems that everytime I get 1 or 2, I end up with a damaged main gun, or the damn thing gets blown to bits. I am not really that skilled using tanks for the most part though. I guess that is why I usually go heavy on inf-at, to make up for my weakness. Nothing stacks up against a zook or schrek IMO, and the US has a damn good equalizer in the rifle grenade too. Man I love it now.

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Or just play Allied, and get use to the pain of facing stuff you can't kill from the front.

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[Wisbech_lad]

Correct, I usually play commonwealth, so the 17'lber is the standard uber tank killer.

The real challenge of playing commonwealth is to get any use out of the feared 2" mortar.

[KiwiJoe]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh great to see a german player having trouble kiling a tank. Take a look at the Jumbo's speed and side armour. Its not that hard to kill if you think about what your doing. And considering its worth arounf 200 points its worth a reasonable risk to kill it.

[North Star]

It is great hearing about Axis players having trouble with an Allied tank. I can't tell you how many well aimed shots I have seen bounce off of Hetzers, Jagdpanzers, Panthers, etc. Payback time. The main options seem to be (a) buy a bigger gun, ( flank 'em, © ignore them, or (d) outlaw them. I played a double blind scenario as the American the other day and was given three Jumbos as part of the mix. I was shocked to see them shrug off frontal hits - too used to the "one shot, one dead" nature of American armor. They still seem too expensive for QB's but I may consider them now that they are now legal under the "Panther-76" guidelines. But I still think I would rather have a better gun than better armor.

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"Act after having made assessments. The one who first knows the measures of far and near wins - this the rule of armed struggle." Sun Tzu - The Art of War

[[SOB]GrooveMan]

Two "Hull Down" Tigers vs Two Jumbos on hill.

I recently played a TCP/IP game against a friend and learned first hand that jumbos are a very deadly foe. I expended over 75 rounds of AP ammo between two Tigers at two Jumbos. At the 40 shot mark I managed to blow the trend off one of the Jumbos and nock out the gun. The other jumbo penetrated my front hull on one of the Tigers, however my tank survived, (no injuries, Vet. crew) it then charged me and damaged one of my guns. At this point my opponent over shot my position trying to get a rear shot, luckily I had a Stug hiding in some trees near the tigers and used it as a decoy to draw fire away from my last Tiger. My plan work and the jumbo turn to fire on my Stug and was smoke my the Tiger w/ a rear shot.

In my opinion Jumbos are unstoppable head on w/ out a lucky track hit. Even w/ a Vet crew and 88's

Oh yeah I also had two 75mm AT guns firing away at the jumbos, however they only got about 10 shots each be for they were destroyed.

Jumbos have crazy amour. Be wary

[[SOB]GrooveMan]

Two "Hull Down" Tigers vs Two Jumbos on hill.

I recently played a TCP/IP game against a friend and learned first hand that jumbos are a very deadly foe. I expended over 75 rounds of AP ammo between two Tigers at two Jumbos. At the 40 shot mark I managed to blow the trend off one of the Jumbos and nock out the gun. The other jumbo penetrated my front hull on one of the Tigers, however my tank survived, (no injuries, Vet. crew) it then charged me and damaged one of my guns. At this point my opponent over shot my position trying to get a rear shot, luckily I had a Stug hiding in some trees near the tigers and used it as a decoy to draw fire away from my last Tiger. My plan work and the jumbo turn to fire on my Stug and was smoke my the Tiger w/ a rear shot.

In my opinion Jumbos are unstoppable head on w/ out a lucky track hit. Even w/ a Vet crew and 88's

Oh yeah I also had two 75mm AT guns firing away at the jumbos, however they only got about 10 shots each be for they were destroyed.

Jumbos have crazy amour. Be wary

[Henri]

Originally posted by [sOB]GrooveMan:

In my opinion Jumbos are unstoppable head on w/ out a lucky track hit. Even w/ a Vet crew and 88's

In one recent TCPIP game, my opponent came at me with 3 Jumbos. I immobilized one of them with a track hit from a Puppchen, and immobilized the two others with infantry rushes.Infantry with satchel charges (engineers or pioneers) are best.If the Jumbos are standing behind enemy infantry, try to stay out of the line of sight while blasting the infantry.

Best is to try to sucker the Jumbos to advance where you can either get a flank shot or assault them with infantry.

Henri

[Shatter]

One other thing, I try to leave an At gun or tank hidden on a flank to perform this very deed.

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quote from Captitalistdoginchina

The mighty 88mm AT gun must have hit the jumbos 5 or 6 times from 1,000 meters without doing any damage at all.

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This quote I wanted to give a little attention to.

At 1,000 meter there most likely is not a At gun that will cause damage to any think skin tank on CM. Not even some of the other lesser armored tanks will be damaged at this range.

My suggestion keep the Big Boy (88 I mean) hid until enemy is at closer range.

Also click on units and hit enter to see damage values at differnet ranges, and you will see why I believe 1,000 meters is to far to engage enemy.

[This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 03-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 03-04-2001).]

[Shatter]

Originally posted by Shatter:

My 2 cents, JpzIV/L70 do a nice job on the Jumbos as well as 88's, try flanking for side shots, small maps this may be kind hard to do.

One other thing, I try to leave an At gun or tank hidden on a flank to perform this very deed.

I noticed some of you are sending Pumas and Lynx's against Jumbos, I have never even knocked out a Jumbo from the rear or side with such wimpy guns.

I am gonna go try a test run on this very thing, later this evening. I just not sure it is even worth trying.

[ASL Veteran]

Having problems with Jumbos? PAK 43 punches through them at all ranges ... out to about 2000 meters anyway.

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When we were in the Bocage country we were assaulted by them Tigers ... you know what I mean by assaulted huh? WELL I MEAN ASSAULTED!!!!