Bruno Weiss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I don't know that they (surrenders), were less frequent due to the many encirclements, collapsing fronts, etc., but certainly it wasn't something looked on with particular anticipation. What, 180 to 200 thousand officers and men of the 6th Army surrendered at Stalingrad. Of that, 2,000 survived, I believe is the figure, which was probably overall fairly representable of the war. I'm certain the figures for Soviet prisoners were even less optimistic. As to women in CM2. I'd have to say, it isn't of the scope of commonality. Yes they served, but not in massive numbers. Presently it isn't even clear that CM2 will contain anything more than a sampling representation of the many Nationalities who fought on the Russian front. My way of thinking is, if the Rumanian, Hungarian, Italian, and Bulgarian, armies to name a few, along with the various lessor representatives at a divisional level like the Spanish, are not included, then I cannot see some Soviet version of Janet Reno come charging outa the woods slinging a T-34/85 under arm like a garden hose. Nope. I do know that the avoidance of surrender and killing of those that might attempt it was more commonly the case in the Pacific. Where it primarily started on Guadelcanal. In one of the World at War series. One of the Pacific interviews tells the story of one Marine who was in a unit guarding prisoners who said; "One morning while asleep in camp, we awoke to the sound of gunfire. We ran outside and determined it was coming from the prisoners fenced in area. We ran over there, and all of the Japanese prisoners were dead. The guard was just sitting there rather casually. We asked him what had happened! What was the matter?" And he said; Nothing, I just got tired of watching them." ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 To simulate french partisans, the only thing we can do now is taking free french units with a green or conscript status... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 The Pacific was a brutal theater, but it was equally matched in brutality in the Russian front, maybe even exceeded. Below is the Commissar Order, given out during Barbarossa: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Staff Command Secret Document Chief Only Only Through Officer High Command of the Wehrmacht WFST [Armed Forces Operational Staff] Div. L (VI/Qu) No. 44822/41 g.K Chiefs Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law. In particular, the political commissars of all kinds, who are the real bearers of resistance, can be expected to mete out treatment to our prisoners that is full of hate, cruel and inhuman. The army must be aware of the following: 1. In this battle it would be mistaken to show mercy or respect for international law towards such elements. They constitute a danger to our own security and to the rapid pacification of the occupied territories. 2. The barbaric, Asiatic fighting methods are originated by the political commissars. Action must therefore be taken against them immediately, without further consideration, and with all severity. Therefore, when they are picked up in battle or resistance, they are, as a matter of principle, to be finished immediately with a weapon. In addition, the following regulations are to be observed: Operational Areas 1) Political commissars operating against our armies are to be dealt with in accordance with the decree on judicial provisions in the area of "Barbarossa." This applies to commissars of every type and rank, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or incitement to sabotage.... NOKW-484. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Bruno Weiss wrote: What, 180 to 200 thousand officers and men of the 6th Army surrendered at Stalingrad. Of that, 2,000 survived, I believe is the figure, which was probably overall fairly representable of the war. A total of 95000 surrendered at Stalingrad. Of them ~5000 returned, so there was ~5% survival rate. This was definitely not a representable case. Soviets captured ~2.35 million Germans, of them 1.9 million surviver, so a little less than 500000 died in captivity, giving death rate of 20%. I'm certain the figures for Soviet prisoners were even less optimistic. Actually, they were much more optimistic than those that you presented, but they certainly were much worse than for Germans who were captured by Soviets. I don't have exact figures available, but I seem to remember that the casualty rate of Soviet POWs was ~60%. A large percentage of the survivors was then sent to Siberia. (Some sources claim that all survivors were sent, but this is a serious exaggeration. I don't know whether accurate data has ever been published or even compiled. One figure that I've seen was ~300000, and that would be ~16% of the survivors). - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 paullus wrote: The last resistance group in the Baltics was finally put down in the 1960's. I'm not certain but I think that the last of the "Brethren of the Forest" in Estonia drowned himself in a lake sometime in the 70s to avoid capture. The brethren were Estonian nationalists who had fought along Germans and hid in the forests when the Red Army came back. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by argie: Well, don't expect to be safe from a gang rape only for being a male in a war like in Eastern Front. Ariel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One of my friends was doing some reporting in Afghanistan a couple years ago, hanging out with the Taliban, and one of muj took a dislike to one of his friends and told this poor fellow: "Get out of here. If you ever come back , first i will f**k you and then I will kill you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 One real tragedy of the horrid conflict in the East is the way that Russians treated their 'liberated' POWs. After surviving the horrors of the German POW camps, forced labor, etc. those men should have been treated as heros. Instead they were labeled 'enemy of the people' and shipped off to Siberia for another eight or so years of confinement. A former history professor was in one of those camps. When Stalin died the prisoners were 'released' but no money or train tickets were given to them so that they could return to European Russia. So many stayed on in the same camps (with slightly better conditions) working with the guards to earn enough to hop a train back home. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Interesting figures. I've never noted the percentages. Your figures are more exacting than mine. Most of what I've just looked up say 91,000 Germans went into captivity, with as you indicated about 5,000 surviving. I don't know either if an overall count of the entire war exists, but I'd like to see those percentages. As well as those of the Pacific. Particularly from what you've indicaged, I'd think then that the Pacific theater would represent the more brutal area of conflict with regard to the likelihood of being taken prisoner or surviving it. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Ok, I'm hesitant even to ask this question as it seems like just begging for a padlock but here goes. Aside from the changes to actual soldier image .bmps -- male to female, would there be any other changes to the game? I'm pretty confident that women can shoot rifles and pistols and machine guns and fire tank rounds as well as men, but what about carrying lots and lots of MG ammo around? Or pushing an antitank gun through mud? And what about hand to hand combat? And would women, being a bit smaller on average fit better into small tanks and and maybe fire them faster? Would including women require changes to the game engine? or does the abstraction already included in the engine make up for this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyzn Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Women driving vehicles should also arrive at their destination sooner because they're not reluctant to ask for directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hehehe Terrance, No offense to any Russians (Sarcasm mode on) but we are talking about Russian women here. Of course they could carry more ammo in worse conditions then most German soldiers. These are big strong girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Does the engine allow for the strength differences between male soldiers? Does it simulate that American and Canadian soldiers were on average taller and heftier (due to food shortages during the early 20s and 30s and general dietary differences)? WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Regarding Soviet POW casualties, I've heard as few as 3% survived German camps. I haven't seen that figure repeated though. ------------------ Massada Lo Tipol Shenit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Forever Babra wrote: Regarding Soviet POW casualties, I've heard as few as 3% survived German camps. I haven't seen that figure repeated though. That cannot be an accurate figure. I just found that ~1.8 million Soviet POWs were repatriated at the end of the war. That 3% survival rate would mean that 60 million Soviets were captured by Germans. The population of Germany was ~50 million at the time... However, it is very possible that the 3% figure represents some specific case. For example, it may be that only 3% of POWs a particularly bad camp survived, or that only 3% taken in a particular battle saw the end of the war. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 The reason that most of the survivors from Stalingrad died, was because they held out too long, became mal/undernourished and died soon after being taken prisoner, or, due to their weakened state before entering the prison. The same can be said about most troops in the Pacific theatre. The Japanese were rarely able to supply their own troops, let along any POW's. Most POWs died because of being ignored by the Japanese (ie. not given enough supplies) rather than being actively murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-: Hehehe Terrance, No offense to any Russians (Sarcasm mode on) but we are talking about Russian women here. Of course they could carry more ammo in worse conditions then most German soldiers. These are big strong girls. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Everybody's a comedian today Seriously, though. Would it make a difference in the game that much, do you think? Cause if it would, than it might be neat to have them in, but if it really made no difference to the outcome of a given fight, than Id' say, why bother? And if, within the context of the game, it turns out to make no difference if women are pulling the triggers or not, what a victory for feminism that would be!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence: Everybody's a comedian today Seriously, though. Would it make a difference in the game that much, do you think? Cause if it would, than it might be neat to have them in, but if it really made no difference to the outcome of a given fight, than Id' say, why bother? And if, within the context of the game, it turns out to make no difference if women are pulling the triggers or not, what a victory for feminism that would be!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think any changes would be needed to the game engine. Obviously they might need to add some women looking BMPs, but as far as combat goes I don't think there'd be any sigificant differences. I'm sure any woman in the Russian Army could pull hold her own on the physical requirements. [This message has been edited by StellarRat (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Okay, let me put it another way. Anyone have, the exact figures on how many women served in the Russian Army? What percentage of "front line" troops those represented? ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Bruno, I'm getting the feeling you don't WANT to win a victory for feminism.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I found this stuff on this website: http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women20.html I don't know if it is true or not: Tito's Resistance Army in Yugoslavia included more than 100,000 women (partizanka) At least 2,000 women were promoted to officer ranks The first all woman partisan unit in Yugoslavia was formed in the Serbian village of Lika on August 25, 1942, 700 women volunteered for the 110 positions available. 70% of the 800,000 Russian women who served in the Soviet army in WW2 fought at the front. One hundred thousand of them were decorated for defending their country Soviet Union had 1,000 women aviators were trained as fighter and military transport pilots, 30 of them were awarded the Gold Star of a Hero of the Soviet Union for their heroism in combat. Lance Corporal Maria Ivanova Morozova a sniper with the Soviet 62nd Rifle Battalion, won 11 combat decorations. Maria Baide, a scout in the Crimea was awarded Russia's highest honor, Hero of the Soviet Union. Alexandra Beikov and her husband Ivan bought their own tank so they could go into WW2 together. She was awarded the order of the Patriotic War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Ya figger? Rather win a victory for accurate historical representation on a bit broader focus. I do not know of what if any latest word is, but the conversations preceding this one on the subject of partisans indicated that we might only see in CM2, Russians, Germans, and Finns, that's it. Which, leaves out a major segment of participants who's operational conduct in the war was significant. There are all manner of things we could introduce to CM2, but what process might be observed to identify, authenticate, and select those most appropriate bearing in mind, time and resource for BTS, is not unlimited? Okay, those are good figures. Now, how many "total" served in the Soviet Army, in order to find out what that 70% of the 800,000 Russian women who served in the Soviet army in WW2 who fought at the front, represented in terms of ratio. Cause, CM is supposed to be about commonality. And, while I've seen a video here, and an interview there of a woman who served (all kinds of medals mind ya), and was at the front and all of that. Never the less, the vast majority of photograpic, and film evidence clearly shows men in combat units not women. Then again, who's to say what lurks beneath the shadows... ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: There are all manner of things we could introduce to CM2, but what process might be observed to identify, authenticate, and select those most appropriate bearing in mind, time and resource for BTS, is not unlimited? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bearing all that in mind, I tend to agree with you. I'm going to buy the game and play the hell out of it if there are women troops in it or not. And I believe that it would probably make little difference to the outcome of any given battle if some of the troops fighting it were women. Still, I was interested to learn those figures -- if they turn out to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Bruno asked: "Now, how many "total" served in the Soviet Army, in order to find out what that 70% of the 800,000 Russian women who served in the Soviet army in WW2 who fought at the front, represented in terms of ratio. Cause, CM is supposed to be about commonality." ___________ Oh, and that's why we have the Super Pershing and the Puma, and couple hundred posts a week bleating about the Sturmtiger and the goddamn Brummbar. But even so, you make a good point. If for example BTS decides to eliminate the Finns or the Romanians from CM2, then why include a subsection of the Red Army, esp if it turns out to be very small percentage. Im sure one of the well informed folks here knows about how big the Red Army was ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Time for some mods - I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is intriguing - tankgirl if you really want to do wavs, I don't see why the Volksturm squads couldn't be used as partisans - except for the fact that you can't make them fight against other Germans! I suspect their weaponry (except Panzerfausts) would be similar. Are there any Allied units one could convert?The Dutch and Belgians also had "partisans" that fought alongside the Allies (That is, the ones who hadn't joined the SS to fight in Russia!) The problem or armament rears its ugly head though. Volksturm would be ideal. Pity you can't turn them on other Germans. BTW - and OT - I was fooling around with CM last night, showing a friend what can and can't be done. He was truly impressed. For giggles we did up a Napoleonic uniform and dressed our Volksturm up. Poor devils! Also designed a quickie Dieppe map which proved truly entertaining. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skott Karlsson: Oh, man... I posted about women possibly being in the CM2 and the thread turned ugly and got locked down. Lets hope it stays clean on this one. ~Skott~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Tankgirl, I will be happy to play against you using the CM Demo. Just send me an email to kschur@erols.com. I will be away most of the weekend though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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