A Pastoral Valley (Tactics Questions)

[Detroit Guy]

Hi Gang,

Yes i am still playing the Demo (its fun!) Im having trouble "beating" the second mission with any kind of respectablity.

I'm Playing as the allies. I can get a "victory" but my casualties are always so rediculous that i dont feel like ive actualy won. If anyone has the demo loaded on their machines (or is bored to death and could load it up) and take a look at that map and the starting units.

Im not really sure what im supposed to do to beat this map other than to just arty the hell out of them and then rush with inf and hope they dont kill to many of my guys to where i have nothing left for the "final" push for the big hill on the oposite side of the map.

Right now what i've been doing is Massing the Infantry and Armor up the center and then moving them over to the ridge to the left overlooking the valley on the "left" of the map. Then artying the hell out of the troops that my guys can see from there (the German Victory point on the oposite side of the vally and the pillbox in town) usually by the time i've reduced these postions im out of most of the arty. Then when i push forward the damn Panzer G (which i assume is an "elite" type tank) can be seen and it basicly wipes the floor with my ass.

The panzer seems to be able to stay alive even when i manage to get all SIX (count em SIX) of my shermans pound on it, usually killing 4-5 of my shermans before they nock it out (heck, this last time it killed all six of them) if im lucky i take out the panzer.. and then just by atrition if my troops havent had the hell beat out of them to badly i make a final push and usually take the town and the "big hill" on the far side of the map giving me a pretty pathetic victory with basicly 60-70% + casualties.

Any overall ideas on how i should deploy , move, and attack on this map would be apreciated. Espcially the order in which you guys think i should try to take various postions.. i assume right now the best thing to do is to take the valley to the left (as the pillbox on the right hand side of the map can basicly be ignored as it never has any Decent LOS to my tanks to kill them.

This game is a blast btw.

D guy

ICQ 4821972

[Detroit Guy]

just as an aside.. does the term "panzer" mean tank? Or is it a specific CLASS of german tanks? Just Curious

D guy

[KnifeForkSpoon]

Yes, this game is the BEST!

You might try a search for the subject line: Valley of Trouble.

There have been some EXCELLENT posts on the very subject you are looking for (and specifically, for THAT scenario).

You'll be amazed at the different approaches available to the attacker.

Good luck, eh?

KFS

[BFCElvis]

Yeah D.G....you are doing the tatic ith the least finesse. I haven't played that scenario in a while (and it is included in the final CD) but a more methodical approach might help to get your score up. I'll tell you something I will do that might be of help. Send me a PBEM set up file for it. am sure that I still have the demo on my hard drive (heck I still have te beta demo on my hard drive) and make me the Americans. I can probably show you a thing or two. I don't know if I will have the patience toplay the game out to its completion but we should be able to get enough done so you will have an idea of what I'm not finding the words to say. Plus once play play another human th game will go to entirely different level for you. If you think it's hard to play the AI and get a great score wait till you ply someone else.

[Detroit Guy]

Thanks for the tips guys, im gonna search the message board for topics relating to this mission once i get dont hitting reply on this Various people have been nice enough to offer to play me. But right now its fairly pointless as im still learning the interface and i take a long time to move while i check ranges and try to get a feel for all the different troops and how they move and what their stats are and such. Me talking half the day to move would just piss people off, as well as the fact that i have between zip and zero chance of beating anyone. With chess, you know what all the units do within an hour or so, at this point im still learning "how to play" the game.

thanks again

D guy

[Michael Dorosh]

Panzer is short for Panzerkampfwagen, or "Armoured Fighting Vehicle."

The main German AFVs were the Panzerkampfwagen I, Panzerkampfwagen II, Panzerkampfwagen III, Panzerkampfwagen IV, Panzerkampfwagen V (nicknamed Panther) and Panzerkampfwagen VI.

To differentiate sub models, the Germans used "Ausf A", "Ausf B", etc. Some submodels of the Panzerkampfwagen VI were nicknamed "Tiger" while others were nicknamed "Königstiger" or King Tiger. They were completely different tanks but shared the same designation.

The German abbreviation was PzKpfw. British historians tend to call them the Mark I, Mark II, etc., which is ridiculously incorrect. It can be shortened, however, to Panzer I, Panzer II, etc. (at least, in English).

You were facing either a PzKpfw IV ausf G or PzKpfw V ausf G.

In English and German, panzer in common usage also means "tank". It is also an adjective - as in "panzer uniform". Some motorized infantry units were classified as "gep." meaning "gepanzert" to identify that they rode in armoured halftracks, as opposed to "mot." (motoriziert) troops who rode in trucks.

So yes, Panzer is a specific designation and also a generic term.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[JasonC]

The best way to crack the defense in Valley of Trouble is left to right. You are forced to set up many of your men on the right side of the map, but you do not have to charge with them. Put one platoon there in reserve, staying behind the crestline to avoid enemy fire. The other on the right can probe forward, while avoiding fire from the big hill's pillbox.

Overwatch that probe with light mortars and artillery FOs back on the ridgeline, and drop their shells on whatever opens up on the probing platoon. The highest priority is the German SiG 150 gun, then their mortars and HMGs. The platoon will probably get shot up, but you can withdraw back into the woods on that side easily enough. Do not press hard on the right, just develop the situation, draw their fire, dump arty on them to silence them.

One engineer squad should scuttle over to that side too, to clear mines (especially the AT mines on the road) -after- arty has silenced most of the German shooters. On no account expose your initial Sherman 105s on that side of the map. be very careful about that. Staying behind the initial crest will do it.

Then lead on the left with the platoon there and the rest of the engineers. Shift the second tank over to help when you can, and send the leftmost tank right away. Don't leave teams in overwatch on the highest middle hill - everybody and his brother will shoot the heck out of that spot. Stay to the left of the peak.

When first getting down into the valley, you will want smoke help to mask the AT pillbox. If you get the angle right, one 81mm FO smoke barrage can do the trick. Use the 60mm mortars to smoke individual spots left over. Charge forward on the left to the edge of the wheatfield there. This should put you too far forward for the German defenses on your right to see over and catch you in cross fire. Bring the tanks and teams forward to the tall wood building near the left edge of the map, riding the slower teams on the tanks to get them there fast.

Put the MGs up in the second floor, and spot for the mortars with an HQ, and bring the FOs. That is now your firepower center. Drop 105mm arty ahead of the infantry, and walk forward and rightward into the German position. You will encounter MG pillboxes and such. The Sherman 105s can make short work of them by direct fire. Just don't drift rightward or you will come back into the covered arc of the AT pillbox. MGs will suppress any infantry. There is some dead ground ahead of you, because of woods and gulleys - use the 105mm FO's arty to suppress everyone in those spots.

Bring the infantry forward, with the line platoon leading and the engineers trailing, and follow close behind the 105 barrage. You should be able to mop up the infantry you encounter. Get to the flank of the pillboxes, and between the Shermans, the zooks, and the engineers, you should make short work of them. Do not use all of you zook rounds, though.

By this point you should have an "L" shaped line. You will not have advanced much on your right, but artillery dueling with the German guns will have silenced several of them. The AT pillbox will still be there, though. The Germans will hold the center town and the big hill, and the forward part of the big hill. Your man force will be on their left flank, so they have to face two directions at once. Don't expend all your 105 FO ammo, and don't try to plaster either the main hill and AT pillbox or the center of the town with them - they won't do enough. Just take out mortars, guns, HMGs actually spotted.

Then try to get your zooks on your left far enough forward to be within range of the center road. Have the Sherman 105s stay back, in dead ground when possible, until you spot the Panther. Those zooks and the Shermans can kill the Panther -if- they get a -flank- shot. The Panther is nearly invunerable from the front, regardless of odds. But only from the front - the side armor is thin. Thus the importance of coming at it from two sides - it can't face both directions at once.

When your reinforcements arrive, you will have a flock of tanks in the center along with the reserve platoon waiting there, and as much of the right side "probe" platoon as is left alive by that point. You should have already cleared the mines from the center road, and taken out heavy weapons on the right with artillery.

Then you have to tackle the AT pillbox and the Panther. One useful trick to fight only one or the other is to save a mission's worth of fire from your 81mm FOs, and use it for smoke on one or the other of them, while you tackle the other one. Then you want as many shooting tanks as possible, as widely seperated from each other as possible. That forces his guys to spend time turning the gun or the turret, and in the case of the Panther should give somebody a side shot too.

When the cat is dead, and the AT pillbox either dead or avoided, storm the town from front and your left side at the same time. Send the tanks only close enough to see some of the buildings and pound away at them. The infantry there will not last long. You can then storm the big hill from your left side, out of the covered arc of the pillbox (if still alive), to mop up any survivors.

Don't try to storm the center while the cat is alive, or try to drive through the German-held town to get at it. If you must attack while the cat is alive, swing a couple of the reinforcement Shermans over to your left, and forward along the same route you broke in, first. That will give you more tanks on two sides. The danger, of course, is if he faces one way and kills those guys before you get him, then he can turn to face the rest and you have problems. To avoid that, you want 3-4 tanks (or close zook teams) on either "face" of the "L".

Timing wise, the key thing is to get through the left side defenses before the cat shows up. As long as you are ahead on the left, to about the level of the pillboxes there, before it comes in popping off your tanks from the front, you should be able to roll up the rest of the position.

The key tactics in making that initial break-in are (1) smoke the big German guns to avoid them while getting down into the valley, out of their LOS by being too low and too far to your left for them to see (2) use the Shermans on the MG pillboxes, left-most first to clear a way in for the infantry (3) use the 105mm artillery on the dead ground and woods areas that the Shermans can't blast (4) lead with the infantry to avoid losing the Shermans to fausts or schrecks (5) take out any surviving pillboxes from the flank and rear with zooks or engineers - don't try to do it with infantry from the front.

With that detailed program, I think you will find the Valley a perfectly "crackable" defense. Good luck.

[Alex heritage]

bassicly wait for your reinforcements before trying anything. Then get all 6 shermans to crest the little hill in the los of the at bunker. u will get first shot and all 6 shermans fire ure almost sure to cause a knock out or crew casuallty. then roll em' down the lane with engineers in front of them scanning for mines. then push ALL ure infantry into the woods and out the other side the enemy tank shouldn't cause much bother.

[Darwin]

where to start....

make a plan. Before the shooting starts decide whether you are going to remove the main threats or just avoid them for later.

Once your targets are defined use terrain so as to only engage your main target, rather than draw fire from all defensive positions. Smoke can also be used here to silence defensive positions otherwise unavoidable.

Consider the pillboxes limited arc of fire and use this to your advantage. Infantry can take a pillbox at pointblank range through the use of grenades or other explosives. either smoke out the pillbox and rush it or approach it from outside it's firing arc.

MG bunkers have no chance against your tanks. If you can silence the 88 or get around it, use your tanks to take the bunkers from range.

The Panther is often considered the best tank of WW2 combining decent mobility, armor and killing power all into one tough beast. On the other hand the sherman is constantly derided as being a piece of c*** (unfairly so as it performs well for the role it was designed infantry support). Generally at longer ranges rounds from the sherman will fail to penetrate the panther while the panthers rounds will toast a sherman anytime. If possible try to get the panther from multiple angles at close range.

Although you can win using brute force and slugging it out, try playing more chesslike. What I mean is in VoT (valley of terror) for example the germans start with only a few weapons that can hurt your tanks at range if you can remove these then your tanks can just sit back and pummel anything that gives your infantry trouble until the panther shows up.

Good luck and I hope this has been helpful...

editted for spelling

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Darwin ]

[Detroit Guy]

I read all of the above , as well as 3 differnt breakdowns of how to take this mission from what i read in a search of the forum archive. I only had a chance to play the game once last night (and just woke up from a hangover a bit ago)

The computer wiped its ass with me again. I loaded up all the spotters and mortars on the big hill. (all but one at the start and ran the one left in the right-hand deployment zone over there after starting)

Then Started movig the 2 Tanks and 1 Platoon from the center to the enemy right flank (my left) Advancing that platoon that starts on my left foward toward the wheatfield/two-story and diagonally moving the 2 tanks and the platoon from the center (leaving one platoon back to load up in the tank platoon(?) that shows up for re-inforcements) As well as advancing the platoon on the right up through the forrest to my right.

Well, before re-inforcements came my guys on the left (wheatfield) side where chewed up pretty bad by the pill boxes. (should have smoked bunkers before advancing. (doh!)

Both Shermans taken out by that freaking anti-tank cement pillbox, which, up until that last game i played where never able to see the cement AT box from that far away, but again should have smoked before advancing.

My guys on the forrest side were blasted to all HELL by either some lucky mortar fire or by that damn anti infantry gun (im not sure which, because even though i tried like a madman to find them i guess they stayed concealed somehow)

I was pissed off at that point and just surrendered. Oh well, Guess ill try again tonight.

Idiot Me:

1. They Pilboxes got the wheatfield guys basicly because i didnt think they (the boxes) where so effective at that range and thought i could use the spotter to smoke the boxes (target for smoke) and then advance my guys, and by the time my guys got into range the smoke shells would hit. (wrong)

2. Just had no clue that AT pillbox could see my tanks from the OTHER side of that far ridge. Live and learn i guess.

3. Dunno what i was supposed to do over on the forrest side. My guys moved up.. through the trees.. once they got out to the other side.. BLAMO. One turn. Try again i guess.

4. Probably would help if i knew what "hull down" and "in-defliable" meant. LOL

5. The fact that i suck probably doenst help the situation.

Ill get thoes kraut bastards eventually though. hehe

D Guy

[Detroit Guy]

scratch that "i read all of the above" part, i read all of the messages as of last night, didnt read the "wait till all your re-enforcments come" one. (which so far of the 4 or so breakdowns ive read thats the first time i've seen that suggestion.)

Also i keep one platoon back to be later loaded up on the tank re-enforcments, basicly because i was told too. Not really sure what the point of doing that is, as if i just advanced them, they would be "in play" before the tank re-enforcments came (thus no need to "speed them" to the front someplace)

D guy

[JasonC]

On the tanks and the pillbox, you didn't smoke it as required, but also you say you slanted them forward and right, I gather well to the right of the wheatfield. No, go up to the house with them (after 81mm smoke lands), and only then forward and right, through the wheat itself, within ~100 yards of the left edge of the map. Tanks on the same axis as the infantry.

Pause the tank(s) in the wheat to KO the first bunker on the left, and then let the infantry take the lead before shoving off again, with the artillery ahead of them in turn.

On your right, it was the infantry gun for sure - 150mm shells. You have to stay spread out and in the tree cover; do not bunch up or 1-2 of those big shells can torch a whole platoon. When one squad gets shot, you need the others alive and looking, then immediately fire smoke from 60mm mortars, and drop the heavy stuff on the gun to take it out. It has a heck of a punch but a weak "jaw". A few 105mm rounds in the right area and it is history. It will kill a squad, but it will only get more if you are too tight or if you get unlucky spotting it.

On the MG pillboxes, as I mentioned you cannot tackle them from the front with infantry. The first one on the left you must KO with the tanks. That will leave some area uncovered and let the infantry move forward on the flanks of the other ones. Until you've KOed one of them, lead with a single squad only, to avoid getting everybody shot up at once.

Take your time at first. Move deliberately and let the smoke come down, but when you rush down into the valley do so as fast as possible, because the forward slope of your initial hill can be seen by just about everything. But other than that one "bound" forward to the low ground, stay in the low ground or back from tree lines or behind buildings, out of sight, at first. Let the artillery on the right, and the tanks on the left, thin out the enemies a little, before you go charging in with the infantry. Infantry fire isn't going to do anything to the initial German pillboxes, so there is no point in exposing lots of your infantry to them. Just small bits to spot, then back out of sight. And avoid the open front of that high center hill like the plague. You want to be well left and forward of it for the flanking push, and well to the right of it for the right side probe to locate the infantry gun.

Better luck on the next attempt.

[Detroit Guy]

Thanks for the follow-up. I gave it another go last night right after putting up my last post, and in my infinate wisdom (stupidity) i thought i'd try a "homeade" strategy which seems to work fairly well in other games (well pre-industrial revolution wargames anyhow)

I piled up all my army on the enemy right flank (my left) except the spotters which i put on the big hill as usual. And putting the tanks at the bottom of the big hill hoping to "pop up" over that small ridge there when the panzer is aiming at my guys.(thus not aiming at my charging troops)

The dropped a little smoke and CHARGE!! Lol.. well after taking about 50% casulties plus having a rag-tag tried out "leftover" group I took out all the bunkers on the enemy right but was so beat up after it that taking the big hill was pretty much a pipe dream. Also my idea of getting the pazer to face my guys (thus giving me a side shot against that damn german steel) didnt work out.

I'll give it another go either tonight (if i have time , gotta get ready for the bar) or tommrow. Back to trying the above concepts. The devil is in the details.

Just because i was so sick of getting my ass whooped , i played the senario again with %100 troops on my side (allied). Quite a bit easier .. LOL. Although it underlined the fact that i have a LOT to learn, in that i took an insane number of casulties even with 100% troops.

I've never really studied "real" combat tactics. But the bits and peices that i've always heard goes something like this... (mostly from Civl War generals being quoted)

:Pile up as much firepower as possible on one small flank area of the enemy, crush it, then move up the enemy flank a bit. Which, i thought was a sound idea, but in this senario it doesnt seem to work. Indeed, most of the suggested ways to tackle this mission include attacking both the right and the left flanks at the same time. While im sure this is the proper way to do it , basicly because EVERYONE seems to say this, im not sure "why" that is. Wouldnt it be simpler to somehow just blast the hell out of one flank and then move on? (not that i know how to do this) LOL

Damnit, spent to much time in the message boards now im REALLY gonna have to hustle to get to the meat market... lol

thanks again guys

D Guy

[JasonC]

CM is a tactical game. The units all have very different capabilities, and their interactions are like paper scissors and rock. If you try to do the wrong task with a given unit type, it will get clobbered while accomplishing little. If you match up the right unit type to each enemy target and in the right order, you can take apart the enemy defense brick by brick with relatively little loss.

In wargames on larger scales or representing older fights or both, the capability of the units is much more uniform from one to the next. And the range of their interaction is small. In those circumstances, getting many-on-one local matchups is one of the few maneuvers possible. Typically the units have various internal states (disordered for example, or some such), which provide an alternate set of tactics (like outlasting an enemy), but the basic ideas are limited and very simple.

Not so with tactical games and varied unit types. You can throw all the 60mm and 81mm mortar ammo there is at a concrete pillbox and you will not so much as muss the defender's hair. You can fire every 75mm tank shell at the front of a Panther and they will bounce. You can shoot off a hundred rifles at a pillbox vision slits at 200 yards and just run out of ammo. Meanwhile, a few MGs will pin your forward infantry, a few anti-tank shells will torch your Shermans, a few 150mm shells will plaster whole platoons.

You are trying to make such things simpler with a lone idea and brute force, or taking that idea to an extreme. Doesn't work. As a scientist once remarked of theories, they should be as simple as possible - but not simpler. Just throwing "stuff" at the German right will not work, or only as a ruinous cost. I explain in detail the roles each arm of your force needs to fufill.

To whit, smoke must get you safely down into the valley, past the AT pillbox. The tanks must KO the first MG bunker on your left. 105mm artillery must hit the dead ground areas you can't see from far away. The infantry must closely follow the artillery barrage, after the forward MG bunker has already been KOed, and clear a path for the tanks and the rest, neutralizing panzerscrecks and infantry with panzerfausts. I am not pulling these out of my ear; they are not optional, as though a dozen different combinations of them would all work equally well.

The reasons are - AT pillboxes have limited fields of view and can't move, so they are vunerable to smoke and avoiding their field of fire. MG pillboxes can't hurt tanks and tanks can hurt them, so the Shermans can silence them with frontal fire. Artillery can drop on locations you can't see, while trying to get close to see over a rise with tanks will put you within range of infantry anti-tank weapons (fausts and schrecks). Infantry can defeat other infantry that has already been pinned or broken by artillery fire, but will lose to them if they aren't first suppressed, when you have to advance through open ground and the enemy are stationary in foxholes. MG pillboxes can kill infantry in front of them, but not on their flanks and they can't move out of the way. Engineers and bazookas can kill pillboxes from the rear at close range. Panthers can be killed by bazooka rounds and 105mm rounds or 75mm from tanks, if and only if hit from the side.

You asked why creep anyone forward on the right in the first place. The answer is to neutralize that 150mm infantry guns first and foremost, and to locate HMGs and mortars as well. You are locating targets for the artillery type weapons, which can hit direct fire weapons without reply, but only if you know where they are.

Guns, mortars, and HMGs are stationary or slow. They cannot avoid indirect fire by moving out of the way. You have plenty of indirect firepower, in the form of 60mm mortars, and 81mm and 105mm FOs. You need to destroy those ranged heavy weapons in "assymmetric" engagements - your shells falling on them, while they can't see your FOs, mortar teams, or HQs spotting for them.

But in order to get that lopsided rock vs. scissors match up, you first have to find them, which means drawing their fire, which means probing with one platoon of infantry well spread out. You want to neutralize these heavy weapons to clear the forward route into the town for your reinforcement force. You also want to clear the mines off the road for the same reason.

The attack on the German right will tend to re-orient the German defenses towards their right. Your left hook turns them, and the artillery work on your right will keep their own left hand "down". When the reinforcements arrive, the Germans are thus vunerable to the "right cross", delivered by the reinforcements (and the reserve platoon).

If your left hook can win the whole fight for you, so much the better, but you can't count on it. Coming in from just one direction will allow the Panther to plug that direction, kill the tanks coming that way, and then prevent further advance (except at very high cost) because the defenders will have tank support and the attackers no longer will, on the their left that is.

"But that's too complicated. I must be able to win cheaply with some simpler formula, without all the finesse, by just doing one thing in an extreme enough fashion". No. Not in a tactical game with detailed and varied unit capabilities.

The defenders have a broad spectrum of abilities, anti-tank and anti-infantry, invunerable to this or to that weapon. If you just throw an undifferentiate blob at them, they will pick out the targets they deal with best, each of the defensive assets will thus be put to good use, and together they will hurt you badly.

Pretending all your units are hammers and all the enemy are nails will not work. You have to pay attention to what is a nail, what a screw, what a hammer, what a wrench, etc. And apply the right tool to the various jobs presented by the defensive set up, in an intelligent order. Each tool is used with an eye to allowing the successful employment of the next one. Together they help each other forward and through the enemy defense.

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

{excellent stuff you should all read}

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. Where's all your other stuff so I can read it cover to cover...

[Darwin]

Excellent post Jason. I am impressed with how clearly and simply you are able to explain these high concepts.

Perhaps a nomination for newbie greeter is in order

[Pzman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Detroit Guy:

just as an aside.. does the term "panzer" mean tank? Or is it a specific CLASS of german tanks? Just Curious

D guy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Panzer means tank. Pkfw is Armoured fighting vehical.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Detroit Guy:

Wouldnt it be simpler to somehow just blast the hell out of one flank and then move on?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two things.

1) In Valley of Trouble you aren't actually

facing 'flanks' because the idea of the

scenario is that you are facing a defensive

line which continues off the board in

both directions. (quibble)

2) Different portions of a defensive line

should be arranged to mutually support

each other. So if you are assaulting the

enemy at point B, his assets at points A

and C can assist in fighting you off. If

you engage him lightly at A and C, those

enemy troops will have more pressing things

to worry about, and your main thrust at

B is then being indirectly supported.

Now in Valley of trouble, according to

the plan Jason gave us, you send a platoon

through the woods to the right in order to

find his heavy gun. Once it is spotted,

they smoke it with 60mm mortars and you

call in artillery.

Thus, the platoon on the right has been

tasked with a specific mission designed

to support the overall assault, even if

the main thrust comes on the left. When

they are done, you can save what's left

of the platoon as reserves, to throw into

the final push later, if necessary.

So I would conclude: sure, mass on one

side and attack. But think about long

range weapons which have a bearing on

the side where you are attacking, even

if they are physically located far away.

regards,

--rett