Gpig Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 Don't know ANYthing about Russian force compositions from WWII except what I've seen on T.V./Movies, and read in books. (And I've only read ONE book about the Eastern Front. Stalingrad.) I was wondering if they (Russians) had the equivalent of Pioneers/Engineers and if they will be represented in CMBB. Will/did they have flame teams? Flame vehicles/tanks? I don't recall ever seeing the Russians wielding the ouchy heat. Anyone? Gpig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Saunders Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 You ever hear of a Moltovi Cocktail? The Russians on the Eastern front invented it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 Ouchy heat. LOL. That has to be a technical term, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted July 27, 2001 Author Share Posted July 27, 2001 Sergeant Saunders wrote: You ever hear of a Moltovi Cocktail? The Russians on the Eastern front invented it. Uhhhh, yes. Heard of them once before, I think. I was asking about Russian Engineers and flamethrowers, though. I assumed EVERYONE knew about Moltov cocktails. Gpig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 the Russians did not invent the Molotov. The first reference is the Winter War. Those fun loving Finns named it for the Soviet foreign minister. I've seen posts that argue the Molotov was actually used in the Spanish Civil War but the posters gave no references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders: You ever hear of a Moltovi Cocktail? The Russians on the Eastern front invented it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I think the "molotov cocktail" was invented by the Finns and used against the Russians. Ah, I was beat to the punch! [ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Subvet ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 that was exactly my point, I wasn't clear. If it wasn't invented in Spain it certainly was the Finns who produced Molotovs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted July 27, 2001 Author Share Posted July 27, 2001 Uhhhh . . . Anyone know anything about Russian Engineers/Flame weapons? (Other than Molotov cocktails.) Gpig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 Yeah, the Russians had man portable flame weapons. They used the ROKS-2 and ROKS-3. The flame gun itself looked alot like a rifle. This was a good thing for the poor guy who had to carry it, since flamethrower operators usually attracted alot of enemy fire. The ROKS-2 had its tanks made to look like a common backpack as well which further hid its true function. These weapons had a max range of about 50 yards and could fire for about 6-8 seconds. The Soviets also had larger flamethrowers used for static defense. These were usaully buried in the ground except for the actual flame gun showing above ground. The soviets used flamethrower tanks as well. These were used on T-26 tanks in the early days and were later put on KV heavy tanks and T-34s. The Soviets also had the Ampulenjot 1941 System Kartukov which was not really a flamethrower. It was an incendiary projectile launcher similar in concept to the British Newton Mortar. It used a small black powder charge to launch a projectile which was supposed to burst on impact and catch fire. You could think of it as a sort of molotov cocktail thrower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 Edit - Late as usual... I know the Russians deployed flamethrowing tanks, the most common of which was the OT-34 (?) based on the T-34 chassis. I'm fairly sure that they had Pionere/Engineer units, but I'm not certain how common man-portable flamethrowers were in their T0&E. There's a Russian Military History Zone on the web that may have some mention of these units, otherwise a David Glantz book ("When Titans Clashed", etc.) may have some pertinent info on this. [ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desantnik Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 http://wio.newmail.ru/galgrnd/panzer.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gpig: I was wondering if they (Russians) had the equivalent of Pioneers/Engineers and if they will be represented in CMBB. Will/did they have flame teams? Flame vehicles/tanks? I don't recall ever seeing the Russians wielding the ouchy heat. Anyone? Gpig<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Soviet Engineer's were called Sapper's Ie, each Rifle Division had an Sapper Battalion in it's Shtat. An 1942 Sapper Bn consisted of 15 officers, 8 PO's, clerc's, & techs, 25 NCO's, 180 enlisted personel, with 7 bikes, 9 wagons, 1 cart, 21 horses, & a feild kitchen. An Rifle Division would have an Sapper Detachment with an officer & a tech at Div HQ level & an Sapper Plt with 39 men in each Rifle Regiment, an Rifle Bn had 2 Sapper Co's with 102 men each. The Shtat changed for Sapper BN composition in 1943 with an Sapper Bn consisting of 176 men, then again in 1944 with an Sap Bn consisting of 164 men. As to Flame throwers an March 1942 Shtat for an Rifle Division's Rifle Regt's had 1 FT Plt with 23 men, 20 FT's & 3 SMGs, per Regt. The FT Plt was under direct control of the Regt & was attached as needed to the Rifle Bns. IIRC the FT Plt was removed from the RD Shtat in late 42 early 43. Anyway this post only covers RD Sapper elements, with an Shtat (TO&E) examples. Soviet Mechanized forces also had Sapper formations etc. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 Once again back at the internet... Subvet wrote: These weapons had a max range of about 50 yards and could fire for about 6-8 seconds. Many months ago I read a Finnish flamethrower operator's guide written in 1942. I can't remember exact model details, but one of the Soviet models surprised me by its ammo amount: it could fire for 20-25 seconds. It was significantly heavier than the German flamethrower (that was also used by Finns). PzKpfw 1 wrote: An 1942 Sapper Bn consisted of 15 officers, 8 PO's, clerc's, & techs, 25 NCO's, 180 enlisted personel, with 7 bikes, 9 wagons, 1 cart, 21 horses, & a feild kitchen. Do you happen to have 1941 stats available? I'm interested because the RKKA defenders of the Särkisyrjä village in 18-21 July 1941 were composed of a sapper batallion and apparently several rifle companies. (The battle interests me because, as I've told earlier, my grandfather's unit fought there). gatpr wrote: The Russians did not invent the Molotov. The first reference is the Winter War. Those fun loving Finns named it for the Soviet foreign minister. I've seen posts that argue the Molotov was actually used in the Spanish Civil War but the posters gave no references. Yes, flaming bottles were used in Spain (but unfortunately I don't have a reference available at hand) and I think that also in Ethiopia but I'm not certain of that. The name "Molotov's coctail" is probably from the Winter War, coined by some war correspondent. However, I haven't been able to find a contemporary Finnish source that uses the term, for example, all my 1940-41 vintage books (~10) use the term "polttopullo" (lit. "burning bottle"). So apparently the term entered widspread use only later. (Similarily to "potero", Finnish term for a foxhole didn't gain widspread use until summer 1944). The name may (or may not) have a connection to "Molotov's breadbasket" that was the nickname of Soviet firebomb-dispenser containing several hundreds of small firebombs. That device got its name as a reference to Molotov's infamous radio speech where he claimed that Soviet aircraft didn't bomb Finnish towns but instead dropped bread for starving masses. (Molotov may have himself believed that--at least for a while--since it seems that at least some of the 30 November 1939 area bombings were mistakes caused by poor aiming). And going back to the original poster's question... There was one thing that Soviet sappers were particularly good at, namely, clearing secret paths through enemy minefields. For example, There were several cases on the Finnish front where a pair of sappers sent several days in the middle of a Finnish minefield, clearing mines quietly at night and lying motionless during the day, right under the noses of sentries. Then a "tongue-patrol" would be sent along the path to capture prisoners. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Desantnik: http://wio.newmail.ru/galgrnd/panzer.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Great stuff - interesting to see the body armour. I saw German WW1 body armour in the DCLI museum last weekend, and supposedly it was doing its job very well. I also heard that the Commonwealth handed out body armour in Normandy, and that at least some lives were saved by it, although many soldiers discarded it very fast in the summer conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 *lol* FinnGrogs<smaller><sup>TM</sup></smaller> strike again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted July 27, 2001 Author Share Posted July 27, 2001 Thanks to you all for the amazing responses. Always a pleasure to dip into the pool of knowledge. Gpig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Except sapper units in divisional TO&E, there was another kind of rather large units called otdel'naya saperno-shturmovaya brigada (separate assault engineer brigade). Iirc, these were used for fording large rivers, assaulting field fortifications and other such heavy work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 I'm betting that the "firebombs" (ie flammable liquid in bottle with a wick) were used before WW2, but the actual 'Molotov Cocktail' name came from the Finns as mentioned earlier, and the name stuck. Interesting to see that the media today uses the term "firebomb" instead of the colloquial name we all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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