CM2- Did russian infantry have antitank wpns?

[Jeff Heidman]

How does one get the mine dog to only run underneath the German tanks, instead of the Russian ones?

I mean, if I was the dog, and always got fed underneath my owners tanks, why in the world would I go running across a kilometer or so of battlefield to get under some other tanks far away?

This is another WW2 urban legend.

Jeff Heidman

[Zakalwe]

Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

Another vague memory from some past reading...were the Finish the original developers of the Molotav Cocktail?

The name originated with the Finns, but the first recorded use of the weapon against tanks dates a few years back to the Spanish Civil War.

Finns were, however the first to employ it as a standard weapon, and produced it great numbers.

It was considerably more effective than grenades in disabling tanks. The flamning liquid was a mixture of various substances, IIRC at least petrol (gasoline) and tar. The Finnish tank killers worked in pairs - ideally one blinded the tank with a smoke or flash grenade, and the other disabled the tank with a Molotov cocktail on the engine deck. The resulting engine fire destroyed the tank. The technique was very effective against early Soviet tanks, the later models had better protection against such attacks. However, killing a tank with a Molotov Cocktail was hazardous operation, best performed against an already immobilised vehicle.

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z

veteran of the psychic wars

[This message has been edited by Zakalwe (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Red Comrade]

Angine grill? U can shoot in any slot with mol-projector, and liquid will burn and smoke a crew, WW2 tanks a not hermetic. Also they should add a mol-projector cus its a history fact. And by the way, dont forget that Russia is very poor countrey, and mol-projectors r wery cheap! Its cost like a rifle! (It used a rifle ammo for throwing an ampoule)

[This message has been edited by Red Comrade (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Cos]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

How does one get the mine dog to only run underneath the German tanks, instead of the Russian ones?

I mean, if I was the dog, and always got fed underneath my owners tanks, why in the world would I go running across a kilometer or so of battlefield to get under some other tanks far away?

This is another WW2 urban legend.

Jeff Heidman

Trained them under German tractors. Smell similar to German tanks.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Cos:

Trained them under German tractors. Smell similar to German tanks.

It's not like every kilometre of front was packed with Russian tanks, either. If you took 10,000 Russian tanks and lined them up side to side, you would only cover 40 km of ground.

And then you walk the dog over the next hill and you don't see them any more, anyway!

I mean, if you have a Russian tank, you don't NEED the Mine Dog, yes? So wouldn't you employ them in those areas where you don't have any tanks?

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

How does one get the mine dog to only run underneath the German tanks, instead of the Russian ones?

I mean, if I was the dog, and always got fed underneath my owners tanks, why in the world would I go running across a kilometer or so of battlefield to get under some other tanks far away?

This is another WW2 urban legend.

Jeff Heidman

Sorry, Jeff it's true.

You use them in the complete absence of your own tanks and you don't feed them for several days before you use them.

Don't forget that for the first year of the war, the mass of Soviet infantry could go for weeks and not see a friendly tank after most of the T-26's and BT's were chewed up.

Extreme times call for extreme measures.

Our "urban legends" mentality raised in peace and plenty cannot envision what people went through and had to resort to in a war that killed 20 million or so Russians.

[This message has been edited by gunnergoz (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Hamsters]

Don't sound so sure, goz, this topic was discussed a number of times and every time AT dogs have been found to be inconsequential.

[Jeff Heidman]

So, apparently there were not any Russian tanks to train them under, but there were all these hundreds of German smelling tractors lying around to train dogs under.

Riiiight. P.T. Barnum.

Jeff Heidman

[gunnergoz]

Not to kill a dead dog, but I erred in not doing a search on "dog" before posting.

My point was not that the practice was prevalent or even common, but that oddities like that even happened during the war, sort of an OBW.

Wish I knew what the actual figures were. The "to good effect" comment was probably brazen, but was based upon some reading I did a long time ago.

Italy produced an illustrated WW2 history magazine called "7 Anni di Guerra" (7 years of war) which had one issue partly devoted to war dogs. It had some of the only photos I recall ever seeing of the mine dogs being prepared and fielded.

I'm sure that once the word got out, the Germans shot every dog within miles of their vehicles.

Now that my interest is up, I'll query some of my in-laws in Ukraine and see what their recollections of this practice are.

[gunnergoz]

Well, it's not much, but check out this quote:

"The Russian military also trained suicide dogs, during WW II. The dogs (half staved) were loaded with explosives, and trained to seek out food under moving tanks; a trigger device attached to their backpacks, would depressed causing an explosion capable of cutting through the steel under belly of the tanks.

In one day, alone, on the Izyum sector, these canine tank busters destroyed nine tanks and two armored cars. So feared by the Germans, that as soon as they heard the barking and saw the running dogs, they would frantically turned their tanks around and head back towards their own lines, for they knew from experience what was in store for them."

Propaganda? Who knows.

The site is http://community-2.webtv.net/Hahn-50thAP-K9/K9History21/

Another brief mention here:

http://www.wdogs.com/eng/black_russian_terrier/pages_of_history-e.shtml

Or this quote:

"Last were the "Tank Destroyer Dogs", of which there were only a few

companies, possibly only three. These were trained at an Institute in or

near Moscow, first used in the Battle of Moscow (but I don't have a

confirmed date of First Use - German reports indicate November or maybe

October 1941, but I haven't seen the original Intelligence reports, only

second-hand accounts), again at Stalingrad, and last, the 42nd Tank

Destroyer Dog Company, at Kursk. Never very effective. I class them

alongside the German "Goliath" remote-controlled demolition machines -

technically innovative and interesting, but marginal in real usefulness

except in VERY favorable circumstances. Incidentally, Steve Zaloga in his

latest T-34 book, "Soviet Tanks in Combat 1941-1945" (Concord's Armor At

War series,1997) has a photo on pg 72 of a mine dog being trained with a

T-34/85 in 1993(!), so at least they learned not to train them under

civilian tractors and apparently continued trying to make them work even

after the USSR became ol' fashioned Russia again.

As far as I can tell from the single article in the

"Voenno-Istoricheskii Zhurnal" and the German accounts, they were deployed

in small teams of squad or platoon-size; probably 2-3 handlers and dogs per

section/squad."

Taken from: http://history.vif2.ru/forum/archive1/mb.cgi-warclub1+934758211+pg.3.htm

So sorry, next time I'll do my homework before I post.

[Michael Dorosh]

No apologies necessary. Excellent use of source material - greatly appreciated. An interesting topic.

[mrspkr2]

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

Well, it's not much, but check out this quote:

"So feared by the Germans, that as soon as they heard the barking and saw the running dogs, they would frantically turned their tanks around and head back towards their own lines, for they knew from experience what was in store for them."

Umm -- maybe its just me, but Why didn't the German tank commander (who is presumably the one to spot the dogs, as doing so from inside the tank would be difficult at best) simply SHOOT the dogs?

Sorry, I'm still not biting at this one. (sorry for the pun!)

mrspkr2

[Skipper]

> Would be interested in reading more about > them - is there a reliable online source

> that discusses them?

No idea. All I know is that there was more than one school that trained dogs for this kind of behaviour. Not sure if they worked throughout the war, or just in early days (when pretty much any low-tech means to kill a tank were tried and used).

> I am still under the impression that they

> were trained to go under tanks by using

> the Pavlovian process of feeding them

> only under running vehicles.

Surely enough, it was not by subjectiong them to heavy doses of anti-nazi propaganda.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Skipper:

Surely enough, it was not by subjectiong them to heavy doses of anti-nazi propaganda.

Don't be stupid, be a smarty!

Come and join the Nazi Party!

[Red Comrade]

I'll post a mol-projector idea again in the separate topic...

[This message has been edited by Red Comrade (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Jasper]

AT Dogs.

Anyone want to claim that the early Soviet military could come up a radio controlled way to detonate the dog? So the explosives were based on time. So where ever the dog is in 10 minutes will be blown up.

"Hey Ivan - what's that your cooking?"

"Boiled horse flesh."

"Smells great. Hey look! What's that dog wearing? Come here fella. You look hungry."

"Ivan? Do you hear ticking?"

People that like the idea of AT dogs should try the British article "The Army Pigeon" on the Geocities site below. Even more goofy than AT dogs.

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Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or

http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ or

http://www.britwar.co.uk/members/FunFacts/ for military documents written during WWII.

[tss]

Jasper wrote:

Anyone want to claim that the early Soviet military could come up a radio controlled way to detonate the dog?

Actually, Soviets had radio controlled mines. They left dozen or two of them in the Karelian Isthmus in summer 1941. The detonator was based on three tuning forks that were made to vibrate by sending a certain chord via radio waves.

However, the mines that were buried underground needed a 50-meter antenna. I don't know how long antenna would be necessary if someone decided to strap one receiver to a dog. Not that I think it would be a good idea.

So the explosives were based on time.

No, contact. And yes, that means that if the dog decides to roll over, you are in a trouble.

<O>People that like the idea of AT dogs should try the British article "The Army Pigeon" on the Geocities site below. Even more goofy than AT dogs.

And don't forget the US Air Force "bat bombs".

- Tommi

[Red Comrade]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

How does one get the mine dog to only run underneath the German tanks, instead of the Russian ones?

I mean, if I was the dog, and always got fed underneath my owners tanks, why in the world would I go running across a kilometer or so of battlefield to get under some other tanks far away?

This is another WW2 urban legend.

Jeff Heidman

Mine-Dog cant see a difference between tanks.

The dog's owner just indicate the enemy tank.

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Sorry for BAD eNGliSh

[Forever Babra]

Yes, that's a real war-dog. British SAS as a matter of fact.

[Peterk]

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Germans trained hamsters to infiltrate Russian tanks and chew through the electrical wiring.

p.

[killmore]

I believe Clarks book about Barbarossa said some thing like this:

Last german offensive in February 1945 was mainly stopped by soviet bazooka like AT weapon called "...."

That what I remember. I don't have the book here so I can't confirm it...

I also never heard about this weapon before...

[grunto2]

in addition to the at rifles, i believe that the soviets fielded a lot of 76.2 mm guns of varying lengths.

i mean, from what i've read the 76.2 mm was very common, either as an artillery piece in direct fire (short barrel, probably HE or 'c'), or the longer AT gun firing HE/AP.

then there were the 45mm and...

andy