Maximus Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 I played a scenario this morning that was heavy on boccage. In fact, the whole map was sort of a maze of boccage. Victory flags scattered throughout. The force size was about a Battalion of Fallschrimjagers vs probably a reinforced Battalion of American Airborne (I think). The AI put up a pretty good defense, they even counter-attacked which I don't even think I've seen before. ie, I took an area of brush behind a road and then at least a platoon of fresh troops counter-attacked and killed all my troops there. But anyway, what are some good tactics when boccage is in plentiful supply? This was strictly an infantry engagement, but combined arms tactics would be welcome. ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Max, what scenario was that? I'd like to give it a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 8, 2001 Author Share Posted January 8, 2001 It was the "Cabbage Patch" scenario. Fitting name actually. WARNING, the map is pretty dam flat. Hence the slaughter effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoop88 Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Close Combat 1 had many bocage scenarios and the manual devoted some space to the tactics the U.S. Army developed as the hedgerow fighting dragged on. If I remember correctly, the Americans would lay an artillery barrage on the German hedgerow, then move the barrage behind the hedgerow to catch any Germans moving up as reinforcements. After the barrage moved behind the hedgerow, the Americans would spray the hedgerow with suppressive MG fire and have a tank poke its nose through the hedgerow occupied by the U.S. and fire its main gun into each corner of the German hedgerow, where the Germans typically emplaced their MGs. At this point the infantry would advance, making liberal use of smoke grenades and suppressive rifle fire. Hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 I would suggest using your Artillery and onboard Mortors a lot. Wherever you think/know enemy troops are, just bombard the heck out of them and move in with your own troops to quickly mop them up. Hold back artillery until you kow where they are, or are darned sure that they are there, unless you have a lot of it! Since troop engagements will probably be in close quarters, then having a bunch of split squads as your forward platoon recon, to figure out where the enemy is, then concentrate overwhelming numbers at one critical point will save you casualties. Your split squads will probably get annihilated, but, it is better than losing the entire platoon! Always have some sort of reserve platoon for every attack. Once you secure a position, move back the troops you used to secure it and replace them with fresh ones. Close combat can drain a force's ammo and neuter an otherwize effective force (like what happened to your one force when counterattacked by that fresh platoon). You can keep these worn out troops to suppliment further attacks, or, have them guard areas you think 'might' be attacked, or for when desperate measures require them! Try to attack places where not only you have a limited field of fire, but your enemy as well. You don't want to advance in a crossfire. Surrounding an enemy group is optimum, but, very difficult, as, your surrounding forces might get surrounded themselves. Defending in a bocage should be done with minimal forces in the outpost area (enough to stop an advance) but plentiful numbers in reserve (to counterattack forces breaking through the outpost line), unless you plan to counterattack immediately catching your enemy off guard. Depending on the lenght of fields between the bocage, MMG's are either very powerful or very useless. Concentrated mortors connected to a spotter are very good in breaking up advancing troops. Tanks like StuG's are very usefull especially if there is a main road (low profile, and not much need of a fast rotating turret). One tactic is to have a deep defensive area by splitting a lot of squads and placing one in frontline positions, and a rear position in another line of bocage. This will leave you an area to retreat too that will offer you significant defensive cover, plus, you can determine the best places to position your troops for coverfire. When the enemy takes the first line of defence, they will be up against another one of equal strength. This could really ground down an assault. Troops with high numbers of Panzerfausts or Rifle Grenades should be used as your reserve or counterattack units. They are really good in cracking defensive positions. Using them in the first attacks will result in a lot of casualties before they are within range of effective use (due to medium range fire). Placing squads with large numbers of PF or RG's in defensive positions on the front lines will not use their extra weapons effectively, as they are usually used by the Tac-AI when up against entrenched enemies (not advancing ones). For tanks, I would suggest keeping them behind the Infantry, and have some Infantry on the flanks. They can be killed really easily by a Zook or Schreck hidden just about anywayre. When you find where an enemy force is, these tanks can be invaluable in supressing or knocking out their positions. The Churchill tank, Tigers and King Tigers are very good, as, they are slow yet have great armour, flame tanks should be good as well. Moving fast in bocage isn't recommended. Most of this is common knowledge, but, it doesn't hurt to reiterate stuff you already know, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 8, 2001 Author Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scoop88: Close Combat 1 had many bocage scenarios and the manual devoted some space to the tactics the U.S. Army developed as the hedgerow fighting dragged on. If I remember correctly, the Americans would lay an artillery barrage on the German hedgerow, then move the barrage behind the hedgerow to catch any Germans moving up as reinforcements. After the barrage moved behind the hedgerow, the Americans would spray the hedgerow with suppressive MG fire and have a tank poke its nose through the hedgerow occupied by the U.S. and fire its main gun into each corner of the German hedgerow, where the Germans typically emplaced their MGs. At this point the infantry would advance, making liberal use of smoke grenades and suppressive rifle fire. Hope that helps! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes thanks, well said. I'll try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 8, 2001 Author Share Posted January 8, 2001 Damn Major Tom, excellent post. I take back everything bad I said about you. I'm gonna have to copy and paste that into wordpad and save it for later referrence. ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: Damn Major Tom, excellent post..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'll second that. All I would add is that any Tank Destroyers or Fireflies etc. should be kept well out of the way until you come up against an armoured threat, even then they will need very careful infantry support before they get into position to tackle the armour. I cannot emphasise enough (as mentioned by Maj Tom) the importance of recce screen and flank protection when attacking in these situations. ------------------ Remember: Always end your lay in elevation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: Damn Major Tom, excellent post. I take back everything bad I said about you. I'm gonna have to copy and paste that into wordpad and save it for later referrence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, I think... Maybe I should delete that message, before all my tactics get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 The bocage scenarios seem to be the most 'gamey' of the scenarios. Lots of mazework. At least the Allies have the option of going through instead of around 'em. Maybe in real life they felt 'gamey' too. A thought, the Culin hedgerow cutters didn't show up until mid-late July 44, if memory serves- just in time for opertaion Cobra. I haven't noticed, can allied tanks cut through hedgerows pre-july in the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Allied tanks cannot cut through bocage before July (or August?) '44. I know, because I'm testing a scenario for Wild Bill that involves an Ami attack through bocage shortly after D-day, and my Shermans can't move through it, only around it. ------------------ "Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Bocage fighting was historically extremely bloody, and the Allies got their asses handed to them quite regularly until they developed some specialised tactics for dealing with it. I don't especially enjoy bocage scenarios, but I think the majority play out fairly close to what I'd expect. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 The US tactic in the bocage that finally cracked the German defense does not work in CM for some reason (for me) because it is hard to get your tanks and infantry to coordinate as a team the way they could when the US installed phones and Cullins units on them. When the US would do was have a Cullins equipped tank, and about three squads of infantry. The Cullins tanks would bust through the hedge oblique while the turret sprayed one corner with MG fire and the body sprayed the other corner. The squad SAWs would set up in the hole and add to the suppressive fire, while a squad would follow the tank in. Sometimes infantry riding on the tank would also fire for suppression. The Germans, trapped on the wrong side of the bocage, usually outnumbered 3-4 to 1, and under close range fire had no counter to this combined arms assault. Another factor not simulated in the game is that US tanks could talk to aircraft. Low level P-51A recon flights talking directly to tankers on the ground by radio let them know which bocage "rooms" had enemy soldiers so US could concentrate artillery, tank fire, and assault them with this massed firepower approach. Before the Cullins and the installation of hand phones on the tanks though the US took a towelling in the bocage. Afterward the Germans never could figure a proper defense and had to rely on city based strong points to hold the line. Also, I have only read accounts of US soldiers, not any other allies, who may or may not have used these tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I've played this scenario on the RD Ladder and had my head handed to me. I examined the scenario later in the editor and came to the conclusion that it is impossible for the German player to win this one unless he's playing against a complete fool. Don't judge all bocage scenarios by this one, this scenario needs serious re-working to come out with a balance of play. I even talked with the author and found out that this was his first try at scenario creation. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I've only played this scenario against the AI, from both sides, and won each way. All I can say is fire and movement, fire and movement. Spoiler************* As the axis, reposition the 88 bunker to give a good field of fire on the road and bridge. Also use that handy little causeway on the left (from axis position) as cover. Shell the crap out of the amis. As the US, use the guys in the woods to delay as long as possible, then call in the arty on the woods. It wasn't that hard....at least against the AI. I think it would be a bloodbath against a human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrazyKnut Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Wow I think I'll try this on my Dad. We've played ASL for 10 years until CM. Of course ASL now sits on the shelf and collects dust. Wish we had this years ago. I usually let him defend since its easier and he does a go job with ambushes. Need something to even things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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