bebbetufs Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Just watched this movie. It sendt my head spinning (again) and now I'm wondering how we can justify playing wargames like CM and say things like "get a sniper for scouting, great eyes and CHEAP" I know I know it's just a game but is it still morally sound? As you see I need help to justify to myself that I can keep playing my favourite game! Bernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 And how will learning nothing about the reality, pushing history under the carpet, make it better? One of the good things about wargames is they encourage one to do a little historical research of their own. ------------------ Massada Lo Tipol Shenit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 bebbetufs, My best friend told me that he saw grown men emptying there stomachs in the theater when he saw SPR -and this was on an Army base no less. He was a combat veteran himself and he found it hard too. My father who is a Korean War veteran won't see SPR because of it's graphic realism. Heck, it took my wife an hour just to watch the first 20 minutes when we rented it. SPR makes one think about the value of human life. It makes one think real hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 There was alot of very quiet, deep in thought, people at the end of that film when I first saw it. A shame it was let down at the end by the hollywood style, just-in-time arrival of that Mustang....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebbetufs Posted January 19, 2001 Author Share Posted January 19, 2001 Space Thing. You're spot on with that comment! And Babra... I never said anything about not seeing the movie or pushing history under the carpet. I agree that CM encourages research. But it can easily (especially to outsiders) seem like most of this research goes into technical/tactical details and not war itself. Most questions are along the lines of "would x shell penetrate y tank if fired from Z angle on a rainy day?" I'm not trying to degrade these questions, I enjoy reading it as well. Just wondering how you people justify for yourselves ordering a squad to certain death....in the game, and actually LIKING it? Yep, those planes came in handy...... made the death of Hanks seem a bit more arbitrary though..... [This message has been edited by bebbetufs (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mika Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bebbetufs: I'm not trying to degrade these questions, I enjoy reading it as well. Just wondering how you people justify for yourselves ordering a squad to certain death....in the game, and actually LIKING it? [This message has been edited by bebbetufs (edited 01-18-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Because it's just that, a game. I dont get all upset either if I sacrifice a soldier in a game of chess. -- MS. -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 SPR...an excellent movie. However, for a view from the other side and just as excellent be sure to watch Cross of Iron (1977)...it depicts some grueling battles on the Eastern Front. Man, I feel sorry for that German squad everytime I think of it...damn show-off "noble" officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tontoman Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Yeah, remember it's a game. If you forget this you have to put into question many other forms of 'combat' which you see in sports. Football, boxing, hockey... everyone cheers the big hit or the crushing punch even though it's people on the receiving end. When you look it this way CM far removed as you're not even talking about real people. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 At the lowest level, the units you have in CM, be they armor, arty, infantry, etc, are simply resources, and the game is one of economics. If I expend X resources to achieve goal Y, is that an acceptable cost? It may, well not may. It does sound and IS dehumanizing, but show me one war that was humane. We, er well, I play these games because it takes a certain learning, a certain discipline, a certain mode of thought that has always intrigued me. I personally hope that playing a game like CM is the closest any of us has to get to performing the real act. Hollywood does a severe injustice to all former soldiers when it romanticises (spelling anyone?) war. It is ugly, brutal, and a waste of intelligence. To keep my perspective, I read unit histories. Slightly skewed no doubt, but the closest I am likely to come to "truth" about event 50 years old. ------------------ To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bebbetufs: I'm not trying to degrade these questions, I enjoy reading it as well. Just wondering how you people justify for yourselves ordering a squad to certain death....in the game, and actually LIKING it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, well, I admit I'm pretty put off sometimes by the comments I see here on the board by guys who must think they're pretty hairy. Either all they know of violence is what they see on a screen, or they really have a problem. I've been studying military history for 50 years now, and the more I've learned the more I decide that it's a goddam f***in' stupid way for people to settle their differences. But it's happened. My ignoring it won't make it not have happened. Maybe my knowing about it makes it a little less likely to happen again. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>made the death of Hanks seem a bit more arbitrary though.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> War is pretty arbitrary. As Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "War is the provence of chance." Good guys get nailed and idiots sail through without a scratch. Come to think of it, peacetime is a lot like that as well. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFink Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I agree, war is an awful thing, but sometimes necessary. Read some literature about people at war to gain an even deeper understanding. "We were solders once and Young" is a fantastic story of men at war. It involves the air-cav in Vietnam. Powerful stuff. As for CM, the thing that struck me the first time I played it is the HIGH rate of casualties in the game. I kept asking myself if it were true or not. I know it's just a game, but if the KIA/WIA rates are as high as the game portrays the WWII battlefield was an extremely dangerous place to be. I'm currently reading "Panzer Battles" by mellenthin. It's a somewhat tilted view of the Wehrmacht during WWII. The battle (from an operational perspective) descriptions are excellent, however there are some questionable, to downright racist, comments. Thankfully, the book is from a different era. It was written during the cold war in 56. Finally, my father fought in Korea during 52-53. He recieved a Purple Heart and a bronze star. He doesn't like to talk about it. However, one time I was talking to him and I brought it up. He made one comment that hit me profoundly, "The War was a terrible waste of life". L Bilello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bebbetufs: I'm not trying to degrade these questions, I enjoy reading it as well. Just wondering how you people justify for yourselves ordering a squad to certain death....in the game, and actually LIKING it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If one has a firm grip on reality, then this sort of thing tends to not bother one that is playing a game on the subject. Only those that are a wee bit "sheltered", shall I say , have a problem with reality. In other words, one needs an education about everything both presently and historically and then one wouldn't get so bent out of shape about the world and its problems. Granted war is a terrible thing, but it is sometimes necessary to settle things in which all other means fail. And I'm sure, if I were a soldier in a war, I'd be scared ****less. I think it was Sun Tzu that said that "War is the continuation of policy when all other policy has failed." or something like that. Actually the war movies and documentaries that I actually shake my head about in disgust are ones prior to the Spanish American War, ie, American Civil War, America's Revolutionary War, Napoleonic Era, where men would line up across from one another and fire volleys of musket fire at one another. I ask myself, "Why don't they just duck as the enemy line starts to take aim?" I know I just wouldn't stand there. NOTE: This post was not directed at anyone in particular, I just answered the question in general terms. ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WolfLord: SPR...an excellent movie. However, for a view from the other side and just as excellent be sure to watch Cross of Iron (1977)...it depicts some grueling battles on the Eastern Front. Man, I feel sorry for that German squad everytime I think of it...damn show-off "noble" officers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, those poor murderous Nazis! Weren't allowed to subjugate those filthy no-good Slavs to their Aryan race and had untrained peasants thrown at them, some without actual weapons, by a cruel regime that had anyone not fighting for whatever reason shot. Those poor, poor Germans. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strat Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I saw SPR and the movie sucked. Totally unrealistic. Strat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Ever been in combat Strat? I mean that as a serious question not a flame. ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpack Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Personally, the moment that really got to me in SPR, and really the only one, was right at the beginning. You can watch all the movies you want, but to really realize what war is all about, go to a military cemetary. I've been to Arlington a couple of times, and every time I go, I get chills. It really brings home that THIS is what war is about. Regardless of the reason, that is the final result, a lot of people dead. When I was at the University of Mississippi, I would go to some of the military cemetaries around there, and even 120-130 years removed from the event, it still hits home. Nearly the entire college enlisted and fought in the civil war, and few returned to their homes afterward. Not to say that war isn't necessary, in some cases it is, but to think on what we've lost as a result...it's just something that many people don't think about. ------------------ It is nearly always better to be beaten and learn, rather than to win and take no new knowledge from that victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 The great things about the first 20 minutes of SPR is the realism and the graphics of war dispel the glorifications of war protaited by many old Hollywood WW2 movies. War is senseless, cruel and bloody waste of life. This made many people questioned their wargamming hobby initally back at the Wargamming newsgroup! Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 "Yeah, those poor murderous Nazis! Weren't allowed to subjugate those filthy no-good Slavs to their Aryan race and had untrained peasants thrown at them, some without actual weapons, by a cruel regime that had anyone not fighting for whatever reason shot. Those poor, poor Germans" You missed the point. Imagine yourself as an enlisted man the Wermacht. You would love Germany and fight for it because its your home...not because you are some Nazi party freak. Most of the common, everyday German soldiers hated the Nazis, but they fought on anyway...for their families and homeland. Even some officers came to understand this...Rommel, Manstein, Stauffenburg etc. even "Sepp" Dietrich. I would recommend that you watch the movie I mentioned or read All Quiet on the Western Front (WW1 but still related)...both of those will convey better what I am trying to explain. All Germans during that time were not evil a**holes like Hitler, Heydrich, Himmler, Goebbels, Pieper...continue to insert Nasty Nazis at your leisure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 For real chills running down your spine, listen to Tu Es Partout while beginning a new scenario in CM. It's the song they listen to on the record player while waiting for the Germans. Just like being part of the movie. My favorite part of the movie was a line in the beach scene. "Who's in command here?" - "You are, sir!" It really captured the chaos of Omaha, IMO. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 When watching the first twenty minutes of SPR, I always think of the account given by an American soldier standing on the deck of an LST, watching the first wave hit the beach: He saw all these landing craft plow in and drop their ramps --- and then nobody got off! Most of 'em where gunned down right as the ramps dropped (just like in the movie), and this guy thought to himself "oh, f**k! We're supposed to win! Where is everybody? I have to go into that?" Just imagine yourself as that man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Yeah, yeah, and I cried at the end of Old Yeller too. It's a movie. Get over it. ------------------ Massada Lo Tipol Shenit [This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Forever Babra: Yeah, yeah, and I cried at the end of Old Yeller too. It's a movie. Get over it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Really? I just thought, "damn, yr gonna need a bigger gun to take out that rabid mutt...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: Yeah, those poor murderous Nazis! Weren't allowed to subjugate those filthy no-good Slavs to their Aryan race and had untrained peasants thrown at them, some without actual weapons, by a cruel regime that had anyone not fighting for whatever reason shot. Those poor, poor Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah you know, my grandfather was itching to spend six years in the Wehrmacht, subjugate Russians, Poles and French people. Sure. Actually he was drafted, like so many others, and his opinion on the matter was never asked. He would have preferred to stay on the farm, marry a nice girl and work and drink with his friends many of whom died in foreign countries. He lost six years of his life with nothing to show for it but a bullet-hole in his chest and three medals, and a bunch of very bad memories. When he talked about how he got his EK I, his comment about the Soviet soldiers killed in the action was 'Poor sods - but what could we do, it was us or them'. Until his stroke four years ago he ran the county chapter of the VdK (Association of war victims) in our home county, organising a trip to Leningrad in the late 1980s (when he was over 70) to meet with Russian soldiers who fought there. Get a grip Commissar, that post of yours was one of the most moronic posts I have read in a while. A vast majority of the German soldiers would not have gone to war if they had had a choice. And that holds true for the Soviets, Allies and other nations. Grunts are f*cked, and you can only hope that you are never getting into a situation like my grandfather. Until you do, I would suggest you come down from your high moral horse. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 von Lucke wrote: > He saw all these landing craft plow in and drop their ramps --- and then nobody got off! Most of 'em where gunned down right as the ramps dropped (just like in the movie), and this guy thought to himself "oh, f**k! We're supposed to win! Where is everybody? I have to go into that?" Those are the kind of anecdotes that really get to you. They have a kind of surreal, ghostly quality which is appropriately bizarre. It's the kind of thing the human mind has difficulty coping with, which is a fundamental part of war. In terms of my attitude towards war – I just know that I wouldn't like to be shot, and therefore I couldn't possibly endorse it. However, there are a lot of stupid and evil people in this world, and unfortunately some of them are in positions of power. If a lunatic controls an army, and decides to start killing or suppressing people, then someone's got to fight him. That said, I might add that there are a lot of people who would seem to be asking for a war. Football hooligans are an obvious example. In Britain we constantly hear about violence surrounding football (soccer) matches – either a Rangers mob stabs a Celtic fan, or England supporters riot at a match with Germany or something. What they are betraying is the tribal instinct which war feeds upon. Jingoism. Your government can tell you to fight, but you're not going to unless you have something against the 'enemy', and xenophobia is ideal. Most people don't deserve to die, but some of them act like their lives wouldn't be much of a loss to the world. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I'm still curious about the notion, specifically the moral implications, of finding entertainment in a game or film that depicts war. You could easily argue that SPR is educational on the matter of human cruelty and loss in war, but what about CM and other wargames that are totally sanitized? I wonder how vets of WWII would feel about us making a little hobby out of recreating battles in which their friends suffered and died horribly. The WWII era as a whole (including the atrocities committed by the Nazis, Japanese, and Stalin, not to mention American racism at home) was one of the largest, most horrifying, and saddest tragedies in human history. That said, I appreciate and enjoy CM not for its "realistic" depiction of warfare--which it manifestly lacks because it doesn't at all depict pain, suffering, murder, and moral horror and outrage--but instead because it's like an extremely sophisticated game of chess. It's an intellectual challenge coupled with a cartoony, 1950's-like depiction of warfare. But is that sort of depiction of war ethically sound and justifiable, especially when sold for a profit? ------------------ I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity. --Eisenhower [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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