Most overused units in CM?

[Redwolf]

Olle, thanks for the positive posting, it is very unfortunate that people got into an argument the way they did.

If both sides would post some numbers and more concrete advice what they think should be done when, I am convinced it would become more clear that they see things from a different perspective. What is the ratio you assume for Panther/Pz IV in the CMBO timeframe? 0.7? 0.8? Something so different that it is worth fighting?

Would anyone really say you would have to take Marders just because you got Panthers last time, where the last game was against a different opponent, on a ladder, playing to win?

Would anyone really say you may choose Panthers all the time when you play a whole Normandy campaign in designed scenarios, all against the same player to get a grab at the historical mechanisms?

That the Panther is pointed out as a particular unit for "powergamers" is a hint that this impression is taken without following the real powergamers on a ladder that is comparibly unrestricted from history. From my observation, the long-term players almost never get a Panther. The survival rate of any halfway normal medium turreted tank is so low in these games that it is not a cost-effective unit. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that many people don't know what it means to play to recreate history to deepen your understanding of the mechanisms.

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[JasonC]

Well Redwolf, here is my proposition, for those interesting in both variety and history. When you play Germans, try playing the infantry types. Play lower unit qualities sometimes, and the infantry force type with Heer. Not always, maybe a third of the time. Another third of the time play something fun and different, the FJ without any vehicles and limited artillery support, say - or the VG with only StuG for armor support. Play the mobile troops the other third of the time, with armor, or with a mech force type sometimes.

As for the armor choice when you do play Panzer troops, try rolling a pair of dice to see what you get -

12 - Heavies - K. Tiger, Jdgtiger, or Jdgpanther (your choice, subject to date)

11 - Tiger Is

8-10 - Panthers

7 - Jadgpanzers or StuGs (your choice)

4-6 - Panzer IVs

3 - SPAT only (Nashorn or Marder)

2 - SPA only (Hummel or Wespe)

The 11-12 results mean a schwere Panzer battalion. 3 and 7 mean the divisional anti-tank battalion. 2 means the Panzergrenadiers are only supported by some of the SP artillery that happens to be handy. 2/3rds of the time you will get actual tanks, half the time Panther and the other half Pz IV - the two different battalions of the Panzer regiment.

The first immediate gain will be variety, which is fun. You will also tend to learn about all the different vehicle types over time, how to use them, what they can do.

[Redwolf]

Thanks, Jason. As I expected, for me it is a lot easier to get into your postings if you enrich them with numbers. Maybe you don't like numbers because they are always attackable for inprecision, but I find them useful and don't bother to argue about a few percentages.

Maybe you could make a list like this for allies as well? My literature of allied formations is not sufficient.

I am pretty sure that a large number of players on tournamenthouse (only ladder I knew, hence the mention) would use such a scheme if both sides had to throw the dices.

I always tried to use different unit types in "power"games (*), but doing so will be a lot easier when I know that the opponent will roll in with nasty stuff only with a certain chance.

(*)Many people on the ladder optimize, but most are aware that they optimize to a local maximum only.

P.S. where does the StuH fit in? I don't think it can go into the StuG/Jagdpanzer IV category. SPA probably.

[JasonC]

Here is a proposed system for the Allied armor types, and below it some nits on the stuff already mentioned.

Brits base type roll -

11-12 Churchills

7-10 Shermans

5-6 Cromwells

3-4 Wolverine + Achilles TDs

2 Archer or Sexton

For the Churchills, TD, and SPA/T, the Brit player can pick his forces.

The Brit player can add Stuarts to any force if desired.

For Shermans and Cromwells, the platoons can be of -mixed- type.

For mixed platoons, roll below for -each- tank purchased.

Brit Sherman table -

9-12 Firefly

2-8 75mm Sherman

Brit Cromwell table -

11-12 Challenger

9-10 Comet (once available, Cromwell otherwise)

2-8 Cromwell

The Brit player can pick the make of the tanks (II or V, Cromwell 95 or 75, etc).

The result will be, if the Brits get Shermans they will probably get one Firefly if they buy a few tanks, sometimes two. Late war Cromwell units will have mixed heavier AT types included, but earlier on they will mostly be pure Cromwell.

For the US, the base type table is as follows -

12 Pershing (once available, TD otherwise)

9-11 TDs

4-8 Shermans

3 Cavalry only (Stuart, M-8 Greyhound, M8HMC)

2 SPA only (Priest, M8HMC)

TDs may add M-8 Greyhounds, and Shermans may add Stuarts at will.

TDs roll the type available; if the type is not out yet, they get the next one down.

All TDs are the same type.

10-12 M-36 Jackson

7-9 M-18 Hellcat

2-6 M-10 Wolverine

For Shermans, roll the type for -each- tank, mixed platoons again. If a type is not out yet, move down the table until the vanilla 75mm is reached, not below. The US player can pick the base "make" (M4, A1, A3, etc), and decided for W or not, HVSS or not, once those are available. But 76mm guns, 105mm guns, W+ and Jumbo armor, require the rolled type.

12 Jumbo

10-11 W+ uparmored 75mm

8-9 76mm upgunned

4-7 75mm "vanilla"

2-3 105mm

E.g. a US player starts buying his platoon of Shermans, and rolls 9. The first Sherman is a 76mm. His second roll is 5, a vanilla Sherman. He could stop there if he wanted, but keeps buying and rolls 8, getting a second 76mm. He buys one more, rolls 4, and gets a 2nd 75mm vanilla Sherman.

If a player takes a full platoon, he will generally get 1-2 upgunned Shermans and often 1 uparmored W+ one. Buying just 2-3 tanks, he is more likely to get just vanilla ones, or 1 76 the others vanilla. Naturally, before better types are out the above will default to mostly vanilla, a few 105mm.

So, to illustrate with some examples from the top. An Allied player decides he will take the Brits, and rolls for his base armor type. He rolls 10 and gets Shermans. He chooses the Sherman II make and buys his first, rolling 5. A vanilla Sherman. He buys another and rolls 5 again, another vanilla. He wants one Firefly so he buys again, rolls 11 and gets one. Then he stops, with 1 Firefly and 2 Sherman 75mm.

Another Allied player selects the Americans and rolls his armor type. He rolls 5 and gets Shermans. He will only be able to afford a pair of them, because of his force type and battle size of around 1000 points (meeting). He rolls 4 for the first one, vanilla 75mm, 7 for the second. He gets 2 vanilla Shermans, that is all. He could also add Stuarts if he likes, and if his "armor" budget can afford one.

A German opponent of the Brit above decides to play an infantry force type. Makes that Firefly the Brit player pushed look at bit expensive. The German facing the American above decides on Panzer troops, and rolls for his armor type. He gets a 7. With only 200 points to spend on armor, his realistic choice is 2 StuGs or 1 Jadgpanzer. He takes the pair of StuGs. Of course, he has no idea when he does so, whether the US player has TDs, Sherman 76s, or just plain vanilla Shermans.

A rule on the cheap M8HMC. They should only be bought in pairs or less. That is the realistic number a company-sized element might bring to the field. So in the case of cavalry, while the US player can pick how many Stuarts and M-8 Greyhounds to buy, the choices for M8HMC are 0, 1, and 2.

On your question about StuH, they belong with the StuG, a roll of 7. They were supposed to be issued 3 out of each 10 AFVs in a StuG company, but weren't numerous enough to always be present. In the Panzer troops, they were also more common in the SS units than in the Heer. The SS had a larger AT battalion (45 AFV vs. 31) that grew out of a StuG battalion, before the two roles were integrated.

With German infantry division force types, there would occasionally be armor support, of course. The rule there ought to be, "you can buy anything that costs less than 100 points per item, but no more than 3 AFV and only 1 type from the 'armor' screen". Which means StuG, StuH, Hetzers, Marders, and SPA. Realistically the infantry did not have access to SPA, but they did have small numbers of "Bison" self-propelled SiG, and ad hoc similar versions, which are not represented in CM but closest to the Hummel or Wespe. Notice, all the Hetzers were in the infantry division forces. And not concentrated - you'd rarely see more than a platoon.

I hope this is useful.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Kind of cool idea there JasonC. I don't see a need for it in my games though. Plus I'm always making scenarios that are almost always a little odd.

[Wreck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

In all the games I played on tournamenthouse ... I have up to now seen one Panther, as the only AFV of an assault defender.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right in that you won't see that many Panthers at TH. But for the wrong reason. Panthers are not as good as PzIV/70 for most things (CM does not model turrets in a very helpful way, but it does charge you for them). At TH you see a lot of 70s against brits. Against Americans, Hetzers are all you need. I have seen scads of both of these tanks, and rarely much of anything else.

That's what people who know use at TH. Not panthers per se. But the point Jason is making about uparmored tanks still holds. It is no coincidence that these two chosen ones out of all those on offer, are uparmored. Both can withstand frontal 76mm, even tungsten at longer range or with a hull-induced armor angle increase. That's powerful stuff; it means you can duel practically any allied tank and win. You can kill them, they can't kill you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

About half of the people take extreme choices .... They are not historical and don't have a problem with it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's me. But just because I play the game as it is, doesn't mean I cannot imagine or want the game to be something else.

I am helping Yobobo work on an automated unit chooser which may help add some historicity to TH play.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The other half runs around in StuG and StuH. Because it is a nice cost-effective AFV, especially if you have to use it very carefully and rarely stick its nose out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

StuH and StuG are the best tanks available in short-75 games. That's why you see them. But the principle remains the same: they have the best front armor available, and are cheap. They at least can stand up to 57mm and 75mm, so the armor is by no means useless.

I have only seen pzIVs (not 70s) in one game that I recall, out of 80 or so played. They died, horribly surrounded by my American ubertanks, M8 cockroaches. (Another horrible affront to historicity.)

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

12 - Heavies - K. Tiger, Jdgtiger, or Jdgpanther (your choice, subject to date)

11 - Tiger Is

8-10 - Panthers

7 - Jadgpanzers or StuGs (your choice)

4-6 - Panzer IVs

3 - SPAT only (Nashorn or Marder)

2 - SPA only (Hummel or Wespe)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this idea. It kind of reminds me of the forces that you could select by a card deck in the back of the original Squad Leader manual.

Can someone break down the odds based on this type of system? I know a roll of 12 is 1/32 which is 3.125%, but what about the others?

[JasonC]

The odds with that table are 3% Heavies, 6% Tigers, 33% Panthers, 17% Jadgpanzer or StuG, 33% Panzer IV, 6% Marder or Nashorn, and 3% Wespe or Hummel. Rounded, so you will get a little more than 100 if you add them up.

Tigers or Heavies combined are 1/12, as are the low end thin-armored SP guns. The armored assault guns are 1/6 and the main tank types are 1/3 for each. Your chance of getting Panther or better is 42%, of Jadgpanzer or better 58%. So there is plenty of opportunity for some sort of good armor, close to a coin-toss really.

[JasonC]

One other nit or refinement. For the US TD types, add +1 to the dice for fights set in 1945. That will make the M-10 and M-36 about equally common, with the M-18s the middle, common type in 1945.

Since another fellow asked about chances in those tables, I will explain a few. For the Brits, they will have the Sherman mix half the time, and the Cromwell Brit-built types a quarter of the time. Around one eighth of the time the tank destroyers, with the remainder split between Churchills on the high end and SPA on the low end.

The Firefly chance is a bit over one out of four, which means the chance of getting at least one with four tanks bought is around 3/4. The chance of Cromwells getting a Challenger early on is considerably less, more like 1/4 for a typical platoon. Late, with Comets available too, the chance of an upgunned tank in the platoon is the same as for Fireflies.

The Americans will get Shermans nearly two thirds of the time, and TDs about a quarter of the time. One chance in twelve of only light stuff. The chance of an upgunned Sherman for each one bought is one in four, while the chance of an uparmored one is one in six. After they are out, of course. So a typical platoon can easily wind up with one armored "point" tank" - but probably W+ not Jumbo - and one or two upgunned "shooter" tanks. Half of the tanks bought will be vanilla 75mm, on average. The remaining one in twelve is a 105mm.

Here are some sample, random 5-tank Sherman platoons (US), that I just rolled using the table -

Jumbo, 2xW+ armor, 2xplain 75mm - very good armor but only 75mm guns in this one. Great for dealing with PAK or pillboxes.

76mm, 3xplain 75mm, 105mm - all thin armor, two different speciality guns. Flexible, but not very robust.

76mm, 4xplain 75mm - Not great, but at least it has one AT shooter tank.

W+ armor, 2x76mm, 2xplain 75mm - a nice mix for anti-tank fighting, still flexible. An uparmored point tank, and two pairs of AT shooter and "wingman".

W+ armor, 1x76mm, 3xplain 75mm - A point tank and a single AT shooter. Also the same as the average for the 5 sets rolled, incidentally.

Just to give an idea of the sort of thing you get from using the system...

[Firefly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

Firefly chance is a bit over one out of four, which means the chance of getting at least one with four tanks bought is around 3/4. The chance of Cromwells getting a Challenger early on is considerably less, more like 1/4 for a typical platoon. Late, with Comets available too, the chance of an upgunned tank in the platoon is the same as for Fireflies.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like your idea of dicing for type of armoured units, it would be a fun idea if you play with someone you trust.

I do however have a problem with dicing for types of tanks in a platoon, particularly for the Brits/Canadians/Poles. If we ignore the division that had all Firefly troops, it was standard TOE to have one Firefly in each troop (and later one Challenger per Cromwell troop), dicing could theoretically give an ahistorical troop make-up such as 2 75mm Shermans with 2 Fireflies.

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[JasonC]

Tanks die. One Firefly per platoon was indeed TOE. But if a Firefly in 2nd platoon bites it, another one does not magically appear when a lamp is rubbed to keep the force mix at TOE. And if 3 vanilla tanks bite it, then the survivors will have more then their share of Fireflies. Dice are in my opinion actually more realistic than a one-size historical TOE pattern.

As for one Challenger per platoon of Cromwells, there weren't enough of them built to provide that, even if they were immortal, which they weren't. My settings do allow a "most likely" upgunned AFV in a late war Cromwell platoon - but only once the Comets have arrived. Before then, it was only Challengers, and there just weren't enough of those to go 'round.

[Firefly]

OK Jason I take your point about tanks dying, however in the British anrmy post June 44, replacement crews were more of s problem than replacement tanks. It would be more likely for the squadron or regiment to reorganise so it was short of a troop or even a squadron rather than sending in understrength troops.

As for Challengers, they were certanly not enough to go round, but Fireflies were used instead even in formations that were equipped with Cromwells, such as 11th Armoured Div. in Normandy. Thus a troop of 3 Cromwells and a Firefly was quite normal.

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[JasonC]

The point about Fireflies in Cromwell platoons is new to me, and well taken. I thought the recon-oriented armor formations did not have them. Was it only the 7th AD, or was it a general practice to mix Firefly Shermans with Cromwell?

If so, then the Cromwell table might have a "Sherman Firefly" entry for a die-roll of "10", and leave the Comet roll just a "9".

[Firefly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

The point about Fireflies in Cromwell platoons is new to me, and well taken. I thought the recon-oriented armor formations did not have them. Was it only the 7th AD, or was it a general practice to mix Firefly Shermans with Cromwell?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my reading, which was about 11th Armoured, which is why I edited my post, the division had a recon regiment which had only Cromwells, with the HQ troop of each squadron having a Cromwell CS tank with the 95mm gun. The rest of the regiments in the division had troops of 3 Cromwells and a Firefly, with the Firefly being replaced by a CS tank in the HQ troops.

Someone did a good post a few months ago on the organisation of British Armoured divisons, but I don't have the link. It was in a thread about the organisation of American ADs, if anyone feels like doing a search.

As I said I like your general idea of dicing for armour support type and will try to use it soon.