Stupid Tank AI in CM

[Tiger]

God this is really pissing me off after the umpteenth time. The Tiger had been trading shots (4-5 shots) with the Churchill, while hunting forward directly toward it (archer taken out few turns earlier), till a small dip in the ground caused him to lose los for about 20- meters. You can guess what popped up all of a sudden in the woods next to him that caused him to turn his turrent back-assedwards while still hunting forward. It wasn't an AT team either

Something needs to be fixed here.

You can see the net result:

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 01-25-2001).]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Tiger:

God this is really pissing me off after the umpteenth time. The Tiger had been trading shots (4-5 shots) with the Churchill, while hunting forward directly toward it (archer taken out few turns earlier), till a small dip in the ground caused him to lose los for about 20- meters. You can guess what popped up all of a sudden in the woods next to him that caused him to turn his turrent back-assedwards while still hunting forward. It wasn't an AT team either

Something needs to be fixed here.

You can see the net result:

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 01-25-2001).]

Yes

BUT the graphics do look Beautiful...

very nice Tiger mod. I'm not currently using that one so I was impressed by it.

-tom w

[Guy w/gun]

Was the offending distraction a tank crew???

[Michael Dorosh]

That does strike me as a bummer. You know, if the Tiger was buttoned, it should have been intent on the Churchill and not too concerned about what was happening to the side of it.

I could try and defend the AI here - if the Tiger did get wind of infantry, even a crew, in the woods, the Tiger crew would most likely have to assume it WAS an AT team. it wouldn't know for sure that it wasn't a PIAT, and being closer, it would deal with the threat.

However, I think it would stop and deal with it while still out of LOS (ie in the dip in the road) of the Churchill, or else motor on and deal with the enemy tank first.

That's assuming the Tiger was likely to even see the infantry. In this case, if I understand you correctly, I would think it likely that the tank would not notice the infantry since the driver's vision was forward only, as was the gunner, the loader couldn't see, the bow gunner could only see the churchill, and you would expect the Tiger commander to keep his attention on the Churchill - or where he thought it would be when they emerged from the dip.

Ummmm...maybe another Tiger in the platoon radioed that an AT team was in the woods?

This strikes me as a well documented, legitimate concern. Is 'target fixation' modelled into CM's code? This story seems to jive with other ones.

I am glad I am not the poor programmers at BTS! Damned if they make the tanks too smart, and damned if they make them too dumb!

[Jasper]

God this is really pissing me off after the umpteenth time.

An observation: This is basically a whine about the quality of the soldiers. Patton slapped what he considered a poor quality soldier if memory serves.

While training and general improvement are constant themes in all commanders long range plans - once the shooting starts whining about the performance of the soldiers is a unnecessary distraction. You gotta use what you got.

I guess one measure of the effectiveness of a commander is one will say "Crap. I wish ... wasn't the case. Well gotta suck it up and take the fight to the enemy"

And the ... can be from "that our armor stacked up better against the enemy armor" or "that I could get even a little air support" or whatever.

Oh yea. Another observation. One definition of insanity is to repeatedly retry the same actions expecting a different result.

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 01-25-2001).]

[Henri]

Originally posted by Tiger:

God this is really pissing me off after the umpteenth time. The Tiger had been trading shots (4-5 shots) with the Churchill, while hunting forward directly toward it (archer taken out few turns earlier), till a small dip in the ground caused him to lose los for about 20- meters. [snip]

Something needs to be fixed here.

Scusa me if I misunderstood, but if your Tiger had been hunting, it should have stopped to exchange fire, so it appears that it was not hunting but MOVING.

It is a big mistake to give "move" orders instead of "hunt" orders when you expect your tanks to meet enemy tanks, and even moreso if your tanks is a lumbering Tiger.

And where was the friendly infantry that is supposed to prevent enemy infantry from approaching your Tiger? (Yes I know, sometimes it is just not possible, but then your Tiger should probably not be moving...).

Henri

[Jeff Heidman]

The EXACT same thing happened to me, although in my case the offending infantry where over 300m away, and no possible threat to the tank in question. However, I was halted at the time. The bad guy had popped smoke, so my Panther decided that he must have warped to another galaxy and turned his turret to engage the infantry that was already being adequately dealt with by flank security.

I heard that BTS was going to make some kind of AI change in the 1.12 patch. Hopefully it will address the tendency of armor to turn toward non-threatening targets and getting themselves waxed by threats to their front.

Jeff Heidman

[Tiger]

The Tiger was definitely hunting. If he wanted to engage the new target that popped up he should have stopped there, not continue forward toward a very recent hi-priority armor threat, turning his turrent backwards toward something he should not have spotted the instant it poppped up at the edge of the woods, behind him.

...you would expect the Tiger commander to keep his attention on the Churchill - or where he thought it would be when they emerged from the dip

Yes. this is what I was thinking. Don't forget that this is a Churchill he had just traded 4-5 shots with, closing to within 60- meters. This had been supposedly fixed in the 1.05 patch: I quote:

"Tanks are less likely to target a new, not-highly-threating unit which,

to engage, would require significant turret or hull rotation away from a

recent, important threat."

-Tiger

[Dittohead]

Would the shatter gap save this tank?

[Jeff Heidman]

Tiger, where is that quote from?

Jeff

[Tiger]

That quote is from the 1.05 patch readme

[DanE]

Originally posted by Tiger:

You can guess what popped up all of a sudden in the woods next to him that caused him to turn his turrent back-assedwards while still hunting forward. It wasn't an AT team either

Well, just out of curiousity, what was identified in the woods and how far away was it?

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Tiger, where is that quote from?

Jeff

I thought it was from the Read Me on either the beta patch

b16 , b24 or the final v1.1.

I remember reading it.

Was the Tiger buttoned or unbuttoned?

Is this an absolute spotting issue?

Tanks seem to spot things like AT teams and target them efficiently even if they can't see them so long as some other friendly unit has spotted the possible threat. Some of these problems may be related to the BIG problem of borg-like absolute spotting.

Buttoned tanks seem to spot threats on their flanks and to their rear that seem, (at least IMHO) like they should be VERY difficult to spot in a buttoned tank in the heat of combat.

BUT, I am confident Charles and Steve are looking into this now for v1.12.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-25-2001).]

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Tiger:

That quote is from the 1.05 patch readme

Thanks.

If that is the case, I would assume that this is actually a bug, and not undesireable but intended behavior.

Jeff Heidman

[Tiger]

It was a bloody sharpshooter. My tank was buttoned after trading shots with the churchill he continued to hunt toward.

-Tiger

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Tiger:

The Tiger was definitely hunting.

-Tiger

Then I would say the problem is that your Tiger did not stop and return fire at the Churchill. That is what it is supposed to do. The fact that it kept moving was the cause of your untimely death. So I wouldn't blame the AI for rotating its hull at a target in its flank, I'd blame the coding that kept your tank moving while hunting.

Are you playing 1.1 or 1.05?

I'm currently in a 1.1 PBEM scenario and I have 3 stugs hunting forward. All 3 are stopped at the moment shooting at an AT gun in the distance. The hunt command is still active, the waypoints are still plotted, yet the stugs are stopped and returning fire. Same with all other vehicles that I have hunting. The only time I have seen that it does not stop is when it is targeting infantry with it's machine guns.

[Guest Watson & Crick]

Tiger, for what it's worth.

TACAI has a case of early onset alzheimer's (like this poster). In my case, it was between turn's (sherman saw my panzer, hid behind a building. Next turn, sherman decides to pop out, my panzer meanwhile decided to rotate the turret & hull 90 degrees from where the sherman was & blast some GI's engaged by two of my platoons. Of course this is when the gamey AI pops the sherman out of hiding to wax my panther. In this case, I HATE the hull turning. Turret turning towards infantry is ok, but keep the hull oriented to that real albeit hidden threat.

Anyway, Madmatt says there is nothing BTS can do about AI early onset alzheimers (much like the people version).

[Guest Mikey D]

Same thing happened to me. I had a disabled 75mm gun Sherman. Panther G 50 meters away and firing. Between turns I put smoke shells directly in front of my Sherman, after a turn the Panther forgets about me and the next time I see him he's got his rear to me, sitting there enjoying the scenery. I almost felt bad nailing the poor bugger.

[Tiger]

This is with 1.1

I am not sure why the Tiger tank lept rolling forward after trading shots with the Churchill. There is fog (obviously), but he could spot and trade multiple shots with the ChurchillVII.

Tiger tank's actions were: hunt forward, spot churchill side profile, shoot. First shot bounces off the front turrent (CH had rotated his turrent). Keep slowly hunting forward, trading shots (3 miss, another ricochet. Tiger tank buttons. Tiger tank takes 2 hits, one causes internal flaking, the other bounces, 2 misses by CH. Range is 60m or so.

Next turn: Tiger's hunt order left unchanged, i.e. continue to hunt forward at CH. Only way you can nail these CH's is at close range. Check hit probability: 98%. Kill: rare. Tiger hunts forward but now dips down into a wide low area between them (depth around 5- meters or so). As soon as los is lost, ?infantry appears on Tiger's flanks while he continues forward.

Tiger rotates turrent at new target, now id'ed as a sharpshooter, while continuing to hunt forward. Tiger shoots coaxial mg twice at sharpshooter, crests out of low area to find: Ch still with side profile, turrent pointed at Tiger tank. Tiger begins to turn turrent toward Ch. 1st CH shot: ricochet off turrent rear. Second shot: KO's Tiger through side turrent penetration.

Tiger exp was vet. He was buttoned. My main beef is why the heck is my buttoned tank quickly spotting a minor (1 man) target through fog in woods on his rear flank right away, when there's a very dangerous target he's continuing to hunt towards after trading shots. If he's going to do this at least stop and engage, don't keep moving forward. I think the problem is that the tanks want *real badly* to use their coaxial mg at targets they shouldn't be. Part of the problem in 1.1 is that it was fixed so that tanks wouldn't use their hull rotation for minor targets. Unfortunately this leads them to unwisely rotate their turrents time and again at these targets they won't rotate their hulls for.

-Tiger

[Vanir]

One of the biggest limitations of the TacAI is that is has no memory. It only knows what it sees, and once it loses site of something it forgets it ever existed. Coding memory into units would be a major undertaking from what Steve has said in the past.

I still believe that the implementation of TacOps style SOPs (standard operating procedures) would go a long ways to fixing this. They work great in that game.

------------------

You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[Tiger]

Sure no go on the "memory for units, but I'd like this reinstated:

Tanks are less likely to target a new, not-highly-threating unit which,

to engage, would require significant turret or hull rotation away from a

recent, important threat.

Or maybe reduce spotting to the rear and rear flanks of a tank if possible.

-Tiger

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Vanir:

I still believe that the implementation of TacOps style SOPs (standard operating procedures) would go a long ways to fixing this. They work great in that game.

Forgetting for the moment that the Hunt command did not work properly, what is the SOP in Tac OPs. I've never played that game.

As for spotting an enemy infantry unit in its rear while buttoned...that is my biggest gripe. My most recent whine was JadgPanzers spotting and targetting my AT teams to its rear while buttoned. AT teams are ALWAYS the first infantry unit targetted by the TAC AI.

Which begs the question, if that sharpshooter had been a piat team, would you have considered that a threat worth rotating your turret towards? You didn't say how far away it was. If you had unbuttoned your Tiger before continuing the hunt command on the next turn, he could have perhaps used the flex MG and not had to rotate his turret to fire. Just playing Devil's advocate. Hell, I empathize with you, but I still think the problem is with the hunt command.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Tiger:

"Tanks are less likely to target a new, not-highly-threating unit which,

to engage, would require significant turret or hull rotation away from a

recent, important threat."

I feel for you. But I'll have to point out a couple of things:

First, it says "less likely" not positively.

Second, I remember reading somewhere that if you actually target a specific unit (rather than letting your units choose targets) they are more likely to "stick" to that target for the entire turn.

[This message has been edited by Pak40 (edited 01-25-2001).]

[Henri]

Still Tiger, your Tiger should not have kept moving when exchanging fire with the enemy tank if it was hunting.

The only explanation I can see is that the crew may have been shocked by the armor flaking that had just taken place, and lost thier concentration.

The only other explanation is "**** happens". This is certainly not typical behavior with version 1.1. I tried the Villers-Bocage scenario where the Tigers are distracted by all kinds of infantry and crews, and I did not observe a single case of unrealistic turret swiveling with version 1.1.

You can't expect your units to act perfectly correctly in every single situation.BTS is not going to change the code for one or two occurences.

Henri

[KiwiJoe]

Hate to bring up get another idea for a command option... but how about a "target till dead" command. ie use the Y key to target a unit and your tank will not break lock till it or the enemy unit is dead, reguardless of what else pops up during the turn. Would be a strictly "use at your own risk" command.