I don't think Infantry close in Assault of AFV is modeled properly

[YECoyote]

I'm sure this has been brought up before...but.

when the infantry is within, say, 10 metres, no grunt is stupid enough to stand in front of a MG or a turret to get shot. Yet, I had some FJ squad within 10 metres, and lost 2 guys before one of the grenades finally took out the Sherman.

So, it should be that, the tank will not be able to fight back if it gets caught in a close up assault by infantry. Please refer to Saving Private Ryan to see how that was done.

[David Aitken]

Yeah, and how come a 20mm cannon can't wipe out an entire squad in two seconds flat like it did in that film?

Your answer is: abstraction abstraction. If you took out a tank and only lost two men, I think you're doing pretty damn well.

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YECoyote:

Please refer to Saving Private Ryan to see how that was done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're on dangerous ground there, YECoyote! As David mentioned, you have to take into account the level of abstraction. What you see on-screen is sometimes a little different to the actualities.

[David Aitken]

I might add that in SPR the tank commander conveniently opened his hatch to greet the paras. If he'd just stayed inside, as tank crews are likely to do in the midst of battle when there are a lot of infantry running around, the paras would have had a slightly harder job of taking the tank out. I also gather that shooting through the vision slits wouldn't work either, as these were covered with bulletproof glass. And SPR didn't actually use a Tiger, it was a T-34, and blah blah blah...

[Jarmo]

During winter war, it was standard tactic to close assault russian tanks that had made a breakthrough. The weapons used were satchel charges and molotov cocktails.

However, the close assaulting was almost always done at night time, as it was all too dangerous during daylight hours

So no, I don't think it's too hard in CM.

Although it is abstracted to considerable degree.

Not WYSIWYG at all.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

I might add that in SPR the tank commander conveniently opened his hatch to greet the paras. If he'd just stayed inside, as tank crews are likely to do in the midst of battle when there are a lot of infantry running around, the paras would have had a slightly harder job of taking the tank out. I also gather that shooting through the vision slits wouldn't work either, as these were covered with bulletproof glass. And SPR didn't actually use a Tiger, it was a T-34, and blah blah blah...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the coax and bow MGs that had no ammo, and the nahveirteidigungswaffe that didn't work blah blah blah....

[Panzer Leader]

Okay let's get off the SPR tangent and address the issue. I once had a full platoon close assault a hetzer for 7 turns and all that happened was the Hetzer was immobilized on the first turn. For 6 turns nothing AT ALL happened, no casualties, no damage to the hetzer, and the whole time grenades were flying.

I don't know what the old threads on this subject reveal, but it is DAMN hard to close assault a tank if you don't have panzerfausts or satchel charges or rifle grenades or whatever.

[YECoyote]

I was just using SPR as an example. My point is that the tank should not be targeting the in-close infantry. It either die (eventually), or try to run away.

The QB that I was playing was "One foggy Christmas night..."

And Panzerman, I killed lots of tanks with grenades. Just move you squad to the back of the tank. Make sure the tank is immobolize first. Tanks really like it when you assault them up the ass

[Peter Panzer]

...oh, oh my.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I don't know what the old threads on this subject reveal, but it is DAMN hard to close assault a tank if you don't have panzerfausts or satchel charges or rifle grenades or whatever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. That's right. And it's realistic too.

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Panzer Leader wrote:

I once had a full platoon close assault a hetzer for 7 turns and all that happened was the Hetzer was immobilized on the first turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can anyone who has attempted to take out a Hetzer with small-arms and grenades offer comment? As someone with no idea how vulnerable a Hetzer is to close assault, your results seem to make sense to me. The least difficult thing to do is blow the tracks off, which your men did. After that, what can you do? We need hard evidence, not speculation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>YECoyote wrote:

My point is that the tank should not be targeting the in-close infantry. It either die (eventually), or try to run away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are various things a tank can do to fight off infantry. CM does not model a tank, for example, reversing quickly to get a snap shot with its MGs, or indeed attempting to drive over the infantry. Its ability to kill the infantry may be limited, but its ability to make life difficult for them is considerable. BTS have doubtlessly taken such things into account when abstracting the close-assault routine.

[YECoyote]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

There are various things a tank can do to fight off infantry. CM does not model a tank, for example, reversing quickly to get a snap shot with its MGs, or indeed attempting to drive over the infantry. Its ability to kill the infantry may be limited, but its ability to make life difficult for them is considerable. BTS have doubtlessly taken such things into account when abstracting the close-assault routine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

y'know, I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking. Of all the time I close assault the AFV's, I don't remember they use the main guns against the grunts. And for that, I guess I can live with getting cut down by machine guns.

what David Aitken said makes sense, I suppose, but I usually don't close assault AFVs with them not immobilized first.

[Stalin's Organ]

IMO grenades alone would not be sufficient to do much damage to a tank unless they can somehow get inside it. Even tracks are pretty tough for a handfull of HE designed to spread shrapnel around rahterh than blow houses down.

So if all you've got is a plain vanilla infantry squad with no satchel charges, gammon bombs or Pz-fausts tehn I'd say immobilising a hetzer isn't a bad result at all.

Remember tanks are armoured enough to resist anything else carried by an infantry squad - so I suspect it's mainly a matter of morale, and you'd have to be a pretty scared crew to get out in the middle of a bunch of angry enemy infantry!!

Note that in CMBB several types of Russian tanks will have mg's mounted in their turret rears!

[M Hofbauer]

I think the main gripe I have with infantry close asaulting tanks is that tanks can't run over infantry. In reality, that would be a real concern (for the infantry) / option (for the crew) respectively.

I wonder of this will change for CM2? probably not. So again I will have all those Jagdpanzer out of ammo being chased around the map by them little soldiers.

[Gremlin]

You may want to read this, a translation I did of a German field guide about close assaulting tanks, particularly on the Eastern Front. Infantry had quite a few options for AFV close assaults at their disposal, it would seem.

[Sirocco]

I recall a US squad knocking out a StuG with a rifle grenade during a QB, which was as much of a relief as a surprise to me. I think it must have been a lucky shot to the rear (ooh, no, missus! ).

[David Aitken]

Rifle grenades are antitank weapons – the US equivalent of the Panzerfaust, although technically dissimilar.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I've lost a Panther to a rifle grenade to the front. Those things are deadly.

[Panzer Leader]

Yeah I guess it makes sense. I wasn't worried or anything, but it seems to me that tanks ought to HATE getting within 20 meters or so of infantry, because infantry would be able to find SOME way to take them out.

[Monty's Double]

I opened a bean can with a rock once.

[Jeff Heidman]

Tanks should be meat for close assaulting infantry.

There are all sorts of ways to kill a tank at very short range, if you can get there to being with.

There is a reason tanks do not like to attack in close terrain without infantry support. They tend to get destroyed.

The problem is that it takes considerable bravery to run up to a 30 ton tank so that you can get close enough to toss a molotov or AT grenade onto the engine deck.

I think AFVs in general (and especially HTs) are way too resistant to close infantry assault. A HT should be almost trivial to destroy by infantry at very close range.

But, as other threads point out, you will not convince the die-hards that there is anything wrong. If it happens in a scenario, it is an isolated incident. If you set up a test scenario, it is not a realistic test.

I have literally seen a platoon and a half try to destroy a HT for 10 minutes without any success, and at ranges as low as 2m.

Jeff Heidman

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Heidman ]

[Sirocco]

I presume that was one of the reasons the Germans advocated Rottenkameradschaft - tanks can help each other against infantry, as well as against other tanks.

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jeff Heidman wrote:

There is a reason tanks do not like to attack in close terrain without infantry support. They tend to get destroyed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By infantry with AT weapons. What we are talking about here is infantry without AT weapons.

You may have a point about open-topped vehicles, though. I'd have to run some tests on that one. Again, simply citing one example where you saw something ridiculous does not mean you necessarily have a case.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

By infantry with AT weapons. What we are talking about here is infantry without AT weapons.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is also what I am talking about. infantry WITHOUT AT weapons.

AT weapons allow infantry to destroy AFVs at range. That is certianly preferable to the need to get up close and personal (less than 20m), but it is not that hard to destroy a WW2 AFV without specific AT weapons if you can get close to it in constricted terrain. It isn't necessarily easy, but it isn't that ahrd either.

WHy else did the Germans put AP weapons with a range of only a few meters on their late war AFVs?

[qutoe]

You may have a point about open-topped vehicles, though. I'd have to run some tests on that one. Again, simply citing one example where you saw something ridiculous does not mean you necessarily have a case.

[Stalin's Organ]

OK - I'll bite. How do you destroy a tank without any anti-tank equipment?

By this I mean no bundled grenades, no molotov cocktails, no magnetic mines, satchel charges, hollow-charge weapons, no crowbars or gas-cutting torches!

There's a tank in front of you - it's not shooting (let's keep it simple). It's buttoned up.

You are an infantry man - you've got a couple of grenades, a rifle and 60 rounds of ammo.

How are you going to destroy it?

I'm dying to know - that excellent erman pamplet referenced a few posts up made no mention of using grenades except as bundles that I can recall, and I'm pretty sure teh jerries would know of anythign that might e useful!