Gyrene Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 I've recently discover the joys of Panther killing with Fireflies in CM and also have started to develop a great admiration for the later model Churchill's thick hide, now my question is: Why wasn't the great 17 pounder gun placed in Churchills? Turret ring too small? Tank considered too slow? That combo would make a tank that would cause Big Cat commanders to lose sleep. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Im guessing its was a problem with the turret size. But your right... that would have made a sweet stand-off tank. Also the Churchill was designed as an infantry support tank and is slow as hell. Now a sherman Jumbo with a 17 pounder would be my dream (allied) tank [ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: KiwiJoe ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Probably a doctrine thing. The Churchill was an infantry suppport tank. Its job wasn't tank killing; that was the job of the crusiers - Shermans and Cromwells at this stage of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorBeef Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene: I've recently discover the joys of Panther killing with Fireflies in CM and also have started to develop a great admiration for the later model Churchill's thick hide, now my question is: Why wasn't the great 17 pounder gun placed in Churchills? Turret ring too small? Tank considered too slow? That combo would make a tank that would cause Big Cat commanders to lose sleep. Gyrene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Churchills weren't used operationally like they are in CM, generally. If you've got an enemy armor company attacking someone in your division, are you going to want your only capable AT guns mounted on a quick, reliable sherman, or a sluggish churchill? Sure, when you're actually there, in the battle, churchill with 17 pdr sounds great.. but when you've only got so many guns to go around, do you really want to mount them on the tanks that can't go anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 There was. Mounting the 17pdr OQF gun the “Super Churchill”, which later came to be named “Black Prince, was developed by Vauxhall in 1943. Six prototypes of this tank, the A43, were delivered for trials in May 1945. It was of course too late for the war, and at that point it had to compete with what was to become one of the most successful tank designs of all times, the A41 Centurion. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted May 25, 2001 Author Share Posted May 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sure, when you're actually there, in the battle, churchill with 17 pdr sounds great.. but when you've only got so many guns to go around, do you really want to mount them on the tanks that can't go anywhere? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It makes sense not putting the gun on such a slow tank, but the "can't go anywhere" comment is kind of unfair to the Churchill, it was the Allies best "Up and over" tank. It could handle any terrain, perhaps only the T34 was better in the rough stuff. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted May 25, 2001 Author Share Posted May 25, 2001 Thank you for all replies, and thank you Mattias for the info on the "Super Churchill" Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 There were also shortages of 17 pounders - the Americans refused to use them at first, then when they realied their own 76 mm was too damn weak, they begged for some - but there were not enough to go around. Hence, not enough for all the British tanks that would have liked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 If you've seen the Churchill on display at Aberdeen Proving Grounds you'd have noticed the Churchill is actually a LOT smaller than it appears to be in photos. Tigers and Panthers (and Shermans!) tower over it. A 17 pounder simply wouldn't fit into that turret with that turret ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Yep you're right, the turret ring was far too small, all British tanks up till 1943/4 were designed to fit onto standard gauge British railways making them not wide enough to fit the 17 pounder. This why the Sherman Firefly was the only British tank to fit the gun. Ironically it was a US design could fit the British gun. The Black Prince was a widened Cromwell rather than a Churchill if I recall correctly though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lordfluffers wrote: This why the Sherman Firefly was the only British tank to fit the gun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So what's that on the Challenger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 The Challenger is similar to the Cromwell, maybe you're getting it confused with the Black Prince? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 No… The A43 “Black Prince” was a development of the Churchill design. It used the automotive layout and components of the Churchill VII but incorporated a redesigned, primarily wider, hull. It was not a “simple” solution like the Firefly and needed a lot of work. In the end however it turned out to be an unsatisfactory solution, with a top speed of 11mph (weighing in 112,000lb) it was definitely touching bottom as far as it’s usability as a tank was concerned. Oh, and the Challenger being, in a very similar fashion actually, related to the Cromwell. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 "The last chapter in the Churchill production story was the A43 or "Black Prince". This was a late war attempt to mount the 17 pounder gun in the Churchill, and six prototypes were delivered for evaluation in May 1945. The A43 was basically a widened Churchill VII with wider tracks. The old Bedford engine was used, but with only 350 hp to propell the 51-ton tank, speed sank to 17 km/h. The limitations of the World War I design finally caught up with the Churchill, and the Black Prince was never adopted for production. Because it was such a large and roomy vehicle, the Churchill was used as basis for a number of special engineering vehicles, such as mine-clearing devices, bridge layers, flame-throwers and recovery vehicles. By 1944 it had reached full maturity, gained the confidence of tankcrews, and its niche as the heavily armoured multi-purpose vehicle, a tank for the Italian mountains, the Dutch marshes and the waterlogged Reichwald Forest. Many of the 5.640 vehicles produced between 1941 and 1945 soldiered on long after the war. Churchill Crocodilles were used in Korea in 1951, and the last Churchill in British service, an AVRE (Armoured Vehichle Royal Engineers), was retired in 1965. The Irish Army were still operating Churchills as late as 1970." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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