Coax Mg and Aiming...

[Xavier]

Hi everybody

Just curious:

During wwII,did tankers sometimes use the coax MG(tracers) to help for aiming with the main armament (gun)? may be during night action, by instance? (Not sure about my english )

Thanks

[Sten]

1: The differing muzzle velocities and ballistic properties of the various rounds would make this a less than stellar idea.

2: That would be the same as yelling "Here I am!" in a game of hide and seek.

Once battle is joined this would of course not be a factor.

I'm not sure about this (please correct me if I'm wrong) but someone told me that in dog-fights between WWII fighters, tracers were included for only an experimental period of time, because they reduced the eficiency of the firing airplane by letting the target know he was under fire. This was probably not an issue for planes that mainly conducted air-to-ground attacks.

[WWB]

This was not really done in WW II. In the decades following the war and until the late 1960s when laser range finders became possible, it was used. The NATO 105mm L7 gun, used in Centurions and Pattons had a flat enough trajectory that ranging and targeting with a coaxial MG was effective. This technique was mainly used by the British and Israelis.

WWB

[mrcobbler]

I love this forum, you get such interesting info all the time!

You guys know lots of good stuff!

Shoeman

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sten:

I'm not sure about this (please correct me if I'm wrong) but someone told me that in dog-fights between WWII fighters, tracers were included for only an experimental period of time, because they reduced the eficiency of the firing airplane by letting the target know he was under fire. This was probably not an issue for planes that mainly conducted air-to-ground attacks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think they learned this in wwi(they may have re-learned in wwii)

traces had several things wrong:

they had different ballistics than normal bullets. so your tracers could be hitting the enemy but you deadly bullets would be missing.

they gave away the element of surprise and direction u were coming in at.

when squadrons gave up on tracers, they performed better

[Admiral Keth]

As I hear tell on good authority, the Israelis often used their .50-cals to "ping" Arab tanks prior to letting loose with their main gun. The Arabs (the ones that survived) eventually figured this out, thus when hearing the "tap-tap-tap" of the nice machine gun rounds on their turret, promptly bailed out just before their tank got toasted. At some point the Israelis observed this effect, then began pinging the Arab tanks with .50-cal jeeps. The hapless Arabs left their protective tank, only to get nailed by the waiting jeep MG.

[Guy w/gun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As I hear tell on good authority, the Israelis often used their .50-cals to "ping" Arab tanks prior to letting loose with their main gun. The Arabs (the ones that survived) eventually figured this out, thus when hearing the "tap-tap-tap" of the nice machine gun rounds on their turret, promptly bailed out just before their tank got toasted. At some point the Israelis observed this effect, then began pinging the Arab tanks with .50-cal jeeps. The hapless Arabs left their protective tank, only to get nailed by the waiting jeep MG.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those good for nothin, goddamn gamey Israelis! Everyone knows that jeeps aren't meant to do anything except sit their and look cool!

[Stalins Organ]

IIRC teh .50 cal ranging MG's were not stock standard Brownings (if they were Brownings at all) - they had ballistics specifically matched to the 105 guns in use at the time.

[BloodyBucket]

In the infantry there is a saying

"Always remember that tracers work both ways."

[Jeff Duquette]

Xavier is correct, the coaxial was employed by the US ARMY during WWII to assist in range determination and bracketing targets prior to firing for effect. This is an excerpt from FM17-12 Armoured Force Field Manual, Tank Gunnery, April 22, 1942

48. DETERMINATION OF RANGE.—

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>a. Estimation by eye. —This is the usual means of determining range.

b. By firing a coaxial machine gun. —Fire the machine gun with an estimated range and roll the strike into the target. The point on the reticle at which the strike appears is the range setting for the machine gun. Refer to the sight diagram and determine the corresponding range setting for the tank gun.

c. Improvement of initial range. —If the first round fired from the 75-mm gun misses the target, the observed error of this round will give a new range for the second round, and so on until hits are scored. (See par. 54.) At short ranges, a good gunner should hit with his first round.

d. By firing a tank gun. —Where a platoon is concentrating its fire on a target, the platoon commander may determine the range with one gun and then announce it to the rest of the platoon.

[Simon Fox]

In Tank, Ken Tout writes of ranging in on a target for the main gun on his Sherman by firing the coax MG, this was a Brit Sherman in Normandy.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

This is an excerpt from FM17-12 Armoured Force Field Manual, Tank Gunnery, April 22, 1942

48. DETERMINATION OF RANGE.—

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>a. Estimation by eye.

b. By firing a coaxial machine gun.

c. Improvement of initial range.

d. By firing a tank gun.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very interesting...

Where does it say "use the range finder"?

- Nowhere!

Why?

- Because there was none...

This is what I've been arguing about a couple of times before, and the reason AA guns have much better first shot hit probability; the AA crew do have a range finder!

Cheers

Olle

[Username]

I believe Panther tanks could have done this with HE fire. The HE round had the same velocity as the coax. Kind of nice; fire MG till you get the range and infantry go to ground. Blast them with the cannon. They run, repeat till uneeded.