New Game Announcement: G.I. Combat Squad

[jd]

Real Time action at Company level? That would be a nightmare, seems platoon would be the absolute max, perhaps only a squad to be realistic.....

Fall 2001....compare to CM's development, I think they are a "bit" optimistic OR will cut corners.

[Michael Dorosh]

Does this mean every single soldier in GI combat is modelled (vice CM's use of three men to portray a squad)? I noticed the pictuer of the halftrack has two men in it manning the MGs.

I think the debate is all very premature - go to the Pearl Harbor movie messageboards and look at the grognards there whining that it is the worst movie ever made - and it hasn't even been released yet!

I'll wait and see on this, but I appreciate the input from those who have dealt with Talonsoft before. Certainly very interesting developments.

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http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm

[Compassion]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

And yes it does look like a rip off.

With respect to theri choice of name ...

Combat Mission + Squad Leader = Combat Squad GI ?

I noticed in the press release they highlighted 3 items that cause lots of talk around here that can't be done easily (or at all in one case). Beach Landings, SNIPERS, and trenches.... Think that they are taking direct aim at CM with this

It is my hope and dream that all the hard core grogs here will give them EVERY bit as much of a hard time for all their ommisions and inaccuracies that BTS received over really little trivial details.

I wonder if Fionn has begun to post on their forum.

In fact I would LOVE to See Fionn evaluate and criticique their game once it is available in as a demo. I figure all the Grogs will rip some RTS Combat Mission wanna -be game to shreads for inaccuracy. I can't wait to see it really.

Little chance of that happening.. If they haveweb forums, you have to remember that they are being run by Rose and co who have never seen a complaint or a constructive criticism (or even a feature request)of one of their products that wasn't a good post to delete (not lock).

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Hey! I want BTS to make glow-in-the-dark-nuclear-colored troops for me too! Or maybe they were aliens?!? Too bad CMBO doesn't have any aliens and real-time turns, then it would be the way coolest!!!

If I was one of the designers of that game, I'd never put my name on it!

COG

[Jeff Heidman]

Why is anyone surprised that Slapdragon got banned?

He basically showed up on a forum of a game that so far consists of 4 screenshots and a two paragraph text desription and told them that the game was a rip-off and had no chance of competing with CM because the designers were stupid since they were not writing for a Mac.

The response was inevitable. How would this forum respond to the same thing? We would flame the guy to hell and back.

Dang, the game is nothing at this point. How can you draw any conclusions about how good it might be from the information provided? Statistically it will probably suck, just because most games do, but the same could have been said about CM when it was just some concept art and a vision.

Some of the posters in this thread sound like they are ready to go on Jihad or something! At least wait until the game has some substance before you pan it!

Jeff Heidman

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Compassion:

I noticed in the press release they highlighted 3 items that cause lots of talk around here that can't be done easily (or at all in one case). Beach Landings, SNIPERS, and trenches.... Think that they are taking direct aim at CM with this

Without a doubt.

There is no doubt that this is directly aimed at CM. This is precisely what I was predicting. Another team is seeing the success that CM has and are going to try to steal their best ideas and improve on them. This is how the software business (and most especially the software game business) works.

If they can actually replicate CM with better graphics and more functionality, then they will deserve my money.

I doubt they will manage though. If they are using the guys who did CCIV, they will likely end up with shallow realism combined with pretty pictures and uninspiring game play.

Jeff Heidman

[Wesreidau]

Jeff, I understand completely what you are getting at, and I agree after a fashion. However, I think what gets some people going (myself included) is TS`s recent history in badly treating ex-staff and the wargaming cause in general after the takeover by Take Two. I`m willing to give any good competition a chance , but when it comes from a Company that does not care about morals, ethics and the future of wargaming (IMHO) then I get mad. This is just blatatnt bandwagon jumping and it won`t take long for most people to realise that..the gaming press included.

We`ll soon see as the game develops......all will be revealed.

[Maximus]

Well, I just went and posted a response to Visom's ridiculous rebuttle to Slapdragon.

What made me laugh was that he said CM costs twice as much as any other game. And I said, "so what other brand new game can you buy for $22.50?"

[A Arabian]

Heres an interesting note - logins from yahoo.com have been banned from their BBS...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Maximus:

Well, I just went and posted a response to Visom's ridiculous rebuttle to Slapdragon.

What made me laugh was that he said CM costs twice as much as any other game. And I said, "so what other brand new game can you buy for $22.50?"

I think Jeff has a good point, though, about looking like rabid dogs without even seeing the game - reread my post about the Pearl Harbor messageboards.

Hey, if enough of us go over there, maybe they'll shut down the board entirely?

I'm willing to wait and see - hopefully they'll answer the questions I posed - if they handle some feature that CM doesn't, I wouldn't necessarily call it "taking aim" - like Jeff says, if they want to add stuff CM doesn't like a campaign, or a steeple you can shoot out of, let them go for it.

But having read the comments here, seen the kind of discussion that goes on there (seems most questions get ignored unless you're a buddy of the designers or they have a marketable answer), and looked at the few screenshots, I think Jeff is right that it will be a slick looking package lacking substance.

Face it, Close Combat is very ahistorical - build a platoon from any kind of troops you want - one SS, one engineer, one Volksturm squad if you want. BAH!

If they model individual soldiers, fine - do they track attributes - and more importantly will their squads and platoons be realisitically grouped? Will they act as squads? Or will it be a bunch of individuals running around on the screen? I have always liked CM's approach to the organization of squads/platoons/companies and am contiually impressed by their attention to accuracy and detail.

I'll wait and see - I'm not optimistic, but I'm not going to go over there and piss on their front door, either. It is possible they have a great product.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-02-2001).]

[Guest Space Thing]

Originally posted by A Arabian:

Heres an interesting note - logins from yahoo.com have been banned from their BBS...

I just tried to post there to support Slapdragon and to calmly point out CM's highlights. After typing a long post (using the correct password, etc...) my post was refused! I tried to go back using the BACK button like they suggested and my entire post was gone! All of that typing. Maybe I did something wrong. I dunno, I seem to do it ok here. I'm not gonna waste my time there any more. (I'm with earthlink, BTW)

[BlueFalcon]

I have to agree with the wait and see crowd, but all I can say is if you have even a slight case of carpal tunnel syndrome I would stay away.

From the clip it looks like when the fighting gets intense the clicking can get out of control. Every single unit is commandable? Yikes! Sensory overload.

No wonder they will program it for multiple players. You'll need all the clickers you can get.

But,

I don't know. It looks like it might be "cool". Come on everybody likes eye-candy sometimes.

Oh, well guess just have to wait for the demo and hope my carpal improves before it comes out (wince as memories of the Diablo "click-fest" come forward).

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Stay Alert!! Stay Alive!!

[Flipper]

talon soft started thier buisness by cloning

taking old spi titles an coverting them to computer but thats not to say they are all bad age of sail 2 looks really good and i plan on buying it.

[A Arabian]

Dorsch and Heidman, You guys are both right on. We don't know anything about this game. Hell - it could be GOOD for bts: 1. Gives them incentive to keep moving forward, and 2. They may get free advertising if GI Combat.. sucks when the game mags say "well, this one is rotten, but if you want something thats better, check out CM...".

There are literally maybe 30 posts on their BBS total, and half are part of the flame war. Its true - anyone came in here and did the same they would get eaten alive.

[Lenny]

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

One of the reasons I was SO happy when I found CM was for the Turn-Based game design. I personally LOATH Real-Time "Wargames."

In my opinion, anything above squad level real time combat falls apart quickly into a "click-fest."

I have nothing against GI Combat, but I will not purchase it simply because of the RTS design.

If, instead, they had gone with more of a FPS squad based game, like a WWII version of Rogue Spear, I would have been much more interested...

(I too hope the Grogs give the designers as much "helpful critique" as they have given BTS.)

A-frigging-men,

I think RTS games have nothing to do with Strategy. Since you are micro managing all the troops and vehicles on the battlefield, you can't possibly develop and execute any coherent strategy while being pulled in 50 different directions at the same time.

You are in a sense the supreme commander of that battle and no supreme commander can keep track of the managed chaos that is combat. Not even the "future soldier" with a supercomputer on his back can manage that. That's why you have a chain of command. "CHAIN" implies many links. From commander to subordinate commanders that are supposed to gather information, collate it, and send the Reader's Digest version up the chain to be distilled into the big picture. They do this while being shot at or bombarded.

So in conclusion, RTS is CRAP and turn-based, simultaneous execution is king.

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[Lenny]

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

One of the reasons I was SO happy when I found CM was for the Turn-Based game design. I personally LOATH Real-Time "Wargames."

In my opinion, anything above squad level real time combat falls apart quickly into a "click-fest."

I have nothing against GI Combat, but I will not purchase it simply because of the RTS design.

If, instead, they had gone with more of a FPS squad based game, like a WWII version of Rogue Spear, I would have been much more interested...

(I too hope the Grogs give the designers as much "helpful critique" as they have given BTS.)

A-frigging-men,

I think RTS games have nothing to do with Strategy. Since you are micro managing all the troops and vehicles on the battlefield, you can't possibly develop and execute any coherent strategy while being pulled in 50 different directions at the same time.

You are in a sense the supreme commander of that battle and no supreme commander can keep track of the managed chaos that is combat. Not even the "future soldier" with a supercomputer on his back can manage that. That's why you have a chain of command. "CHAIN" implies many links. From commander to subordinate commanders that are supposed to gather information, collate it, and send the Reader's Digest version up the chain to be distilled into the big picture. They do this while being shot at or bombarded.

So in conclusion, RTS is CRAP and turn-based, simultaneous execution is king.

[Maximus]

Originally posted by Space Thing:

I just tried to post there to support Slapdragon and to calmly point out CM's highlights. After typing a long post (using the correct password, etc...) my post was refused! I tried to go back using the BACK button like they suggested and my entire post was gone! All of that typing. Maybe I did something wrong. I dunno, I seem to do it ok here. I'm not gonna waste my time there any more. (I'm with earthlink, BTW)

Did you hit what you thought was the "Reply with quotes" button? I did that too, and then relaized that that was the "edit post" button. They don't have a reply with quotes button.

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Why is anyone surprised that Slapdragon got banned?

He basically showed up on a forum of a game that so far consists of 4 screenshots and a two paragraph text desription and told them that the game was a rip-off and had no chance of competing with CM because the designers were stupid since they were not writing for a Mac.

The response was inevitable. How would this forum respond to the same thing? We would flame the guy to hell and back.

Dang, the game is nothing at this point. How can you draw any conclusions about how good it might be from the information provided? Statistically it will probably suck, just because most games do, but the same could have been said about CM when it was just some concept art and a vision.

Some of the posters in this thread sound like they are ready to go on Jihad or something! At least wait until the game has some substance before you pan it!

Jeff Heidman

Jeez Jeff, read the posts again. I hate to say it but your biggest problem with repsonding to my or anyone elses posts is lack of reading skills (in English anyway).

Here is my two posts which Jeff was not able to correctly read.:

Talonsioft is to be commended for its reach were to date only small game companies have dared gone -- but the means in which they have copied Big Time's Software right down to the core is probably not going to win them any points, nor many sales (they even use the same Ultimate Billboard). After all:

1) Combat Mission does WW2 gaming well and has a big audience with a very loyal following, what is GiCombat bringing to the table. The game as currently presented has the same commands, nearly the same figures, similar looking maps, and can only use the same units -- possibly not as well researched (hard to beat BTS here).

2) BigTime's allure is partly to do with its attention to detail that the average FPS gamer will not really jump on to. The game, although possibly drawing more polygons that an FPS game, looks rather abstract. Although wonderful from a wargame point of view, it is a hard sell to a FPS player.

3) Transparent duplications of BTS effort from infantry to the Billboard they use is likely to be seen wrong by some in the gaming community: even if it was not intentional.

4) BTS makes special programming efforts that are unlikely to be followed by a larger company. For eample, BTS has a Macintosh version of their game that comes out at the same time as the PC version -- most PC game manufacturers are not multitalented, but program in a small range of areas so this is unlikely to happen with GI Combat. Part of the quality of the User Interface for the game and a large part of the most fanatic audience comes from this platform.

This game would have been better as a Desert War game, the Korean War, the Arab Isreali Conflict, Modern European War, or any other conflict not ventured into by BTS -- thus bringing something new to the table. Reproducing what BTS has done a, possibly not as well, or trading glitz for grog can only fail.

Perhaps it is not to late to switch this game to modern warfare, acknowledge the efforts of BTS (www.battlefront.com) in this area, and forge new ground profitably, rather than clean up were no clean up is really needed.

Post 2

Actually all this is not the point. They may be shooting more for the twitch and shoot crowd, and more wargames on the market never hurts, but they could have done this in a different era and really sent games forward. As it looks now choosing the same front, same war, same claim to historically accurate units just plain looks bad.

Why not do Europe 1988? Just as good, more gegaws for the twitchers, and it it an exeplored country that could bring new things to the table. It is sort of like Quake III using a first person character called Lara Nukem and then saying -- hey, everyone is doing it! Sure, BTS was the innovators, and after CM2, they will innovate another game - it is in the cards, but this game COULD bring great things to the wargaming table rather than being just a me too effort.

So Jeff -- read BEFORE you spin. My comments were on the strategy of the release rather than on what you think it was. And before you start a flame war I am not making fun of you, merely commenting that it would be better for you to pay closer attention to what people write.

BTW -- I was only banned for two hours (it said you do not have permission to post on this board). I am now unbanned.

[Steel Rain]

Well, I am waiting to see how long it will take them to ban me. I found nothing in Slapdragdons post worthy of being banned. I objected to that and lets see what happens

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

I hate to say it but your biggest problem with repsonding to my or anyone elses posts is lack of reading skills (in English anyway).

So Jeff -- read BEFORE you spin. My comments were on the strategy of the release rather than on what you think it was. And before you start a flame war I am not making fun of you

Whatever SlippySlap. I am sure it is the case that telling people they do not have the ability to read english is not an attempt to make fun of them.

Yet another attempt to both incite a flame and at the same time maintain deniability. You and Cav are getting this down to an art.

My point stands. You walked in, acted insulting in your transparently deniable manner, and got yourself banned. The result was inevitable from the start. You draw a bunch of conclusion from completely insubstantial evidence and got rightly slapped down.

But hey, congratulations on turning yet another thread into your personal vendetta. Did my post say word one about you personally (NO)? Did your response (YES)?

Jeff Heidman

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 02-02-2001).]

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Steel Rain:

Well, I am waiting to see how long it will take them to ban me. I found nothing in Slapdragdons post worthy of being banned. I objected to that and lets see what happens

I think it may have been a glitch. I got a "you cannot post to this forum" and felt it was a ban. Now I just posted and it was cool.

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Whatever SlippySlap. I am sure it is the case that telling people they do not have the ability to read english is not an attempt to make fun of them.

Yet another attempt to both incite a flame and at the same time maintain deniability. You and Cav are getting this down to an art.

My point stands. You walked in, acted insulting in your transparently deniable manner, and got yourself banned. The result was inevitable from the start. You draw a bunch of conclusion from completely insubstantial evidence and got rightly slapped down.

But hey, congratulations on turning yet another thread into your personal vendetta. Did my post say word one about you personally (NO)? Did your response (YES)?

Jeff Heidman

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 02-02-2001).]

DNFTT

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

DNFTT

I think my irony meter just broke.

Jeff Heidman

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 02-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 02-02-2001).]

[Henri]

Although I prefer WEGO games to RTS, let us give Talonsoft a break.

Their forum is to discuss their upcoming game, and not to feed speculation that their game is going to be inferior to CM or some other game.

Is it going to help wargaming to go to their forum and prevent discourse by bringing up Talonsoft's shortcomings and touting CM's superiority to a game that is not finished? I don't think so.

If someone came to this forum and started to bitch about some peripheral queston about BTS's past or any such thing, they would rightfully be told to can it and to go away.

If the game is good, it will be competition for CM; if not, people will not buy it. In both cases, it will raise public consciousnous about wargaming.

Henri

[fubar628]

This is crazy! Why has a pissing match started over a game that is still in it's infancy.

We should all be congratulating Talonsoft and the G.I. Combat team for starting to produce another wargame.

Wargaming is a small market. To get quality titles we need to support all the companies. Without BTS, Shrapnel and Talonsoft you get what? Squad Leader!!

Personally, I hope this one makes it. I like real time wargames and I like CM. CC, CC2 and CC3 were and are still FUN. RTS brings in a different element than CM. Isn't it better to have a choice of both rather than none.

Who cares if they are doing WWII again? In most people's minds WWII was the "cool war" with great planes, ships armor and men. WWII will always be more sellable than Korea, Viet Nam or modern conficts. Would you rather fight in a P-51 or an F-16? Or a Panther or a Leopard? 90% will choose the WWII depictions.

So go Talonsoft! Go CM2! Otherwise we get Squad Leader or Deer Hunter XXXII.