M. Bates Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by Sten: Can't you all see that Bates is right? I often feel very offended when people refer to Sweden as "a country in Northern Europe" Since this clearly implies that we are more distanced from the center-of-action than others. I also try not to use the words "floor" and "ceiling" as it would be extremely prejudicial, and would belittle other parts of the room. I think anyone who uses these two terms are just showing their empathy towards the aggressive middle part of the room. - Nurse, did I really get the right pills...? Sten [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 02-14-2001).] Sten I absolutely agree, this kind of thinking is wrong. However - the Swedes although quiet of late - have raped and pillaged in the past. I suggest that all coastal areas of Europe hold an unreasonable grudge against Sweden, backed by PC propaganda fed to school pupils and local peasants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Amen Chup, I admit I'm we are all in the Cult of Great Warriors. I don't think the Cult favors any one nation or race or sex or creed or religion. One thing is the Russians have been very secretive about their warring, hince not a whole lot of info on heroes coming out of there. Hopefully those Russians with English accents in Enemy at the Gates will change that a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Bates wrote: Hmmm. All I will say is this: there seems to be a "cult" made out of the German soldier or fearless panzer commander and I can't quite put my finger on it. Perhaps there is nothing in it or perhaps there is, who knows. Well, there *is* something to this, and it has been the source of constant irritation on this BBS (pro and con "über German" camps). But it has absolutely nothing to do with the term Eastern Front. And it has little to do with race for the vast majority. For the most part I think the "cult" is based on the "fact" that Germans had "cooler" uniforms, tanks, guns, etc. They also had "cooler" names for things like Tigers, Panthers, etc. And of course, there are all sorts of other military type reasons, as well as that traditionally there hasn't been a lot of Soviet first person accounts in English, but TONS of German ones. So on and so forth. But equating "Eastern Front" as a racist term is way out there... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrano Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 OK...this thread made my head hurt...a LOT...and I've read many of the Peng threads straight through. I know not what course others may take, but I think our recent obsession (here and elsewhere, of course) over semantics and the power structures it allegedly creates (one day, in the next life, Foucault gets it in the knackers from me) serves only to obfuscate and empower inferior minds. What's more, I swear, if any of this delays the release of CM2 by one NANOSECOND...well...shoot...I'm gonna be right put out. I just had BEST be whapping away at Kursk by 2002. Regards, Cyrano ------------------ "Watching others make friends, as a dog makes friends. I mark the manner of these canine courtesies and say, 'Thank God, here comes another enemy'" -- Rostand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 OK, anyone who doesn't like the "Eastern Front" term, I have a suggestion for you guys: avenge yourself with calling the Western Front "The Second Front", as it was known in USSR. As far as I am concerned, I am happy with E.Front term when talking in english (well, almost) in a predominantly american audience. As long as nobody drips crap on MY army , that is. Skipper Leutenant (reserve), RVSN, Russian Armed Forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 > For the most part I think the "cult" is > based on the "fact" that Germans > had "cooler" uniforms, tanks, guns, etc. > They also had "cooler" names for things > like Tigers, Panthers, etc. Now! They might be cooler than Shermans, but hey! Can you say "IS-2"? ... Seriously though, the "cult" is based on the fact (without "") that germans are "ours" for many people, and the 3rd Reich with all their cool uniforms, brilliant military successes etc, but also with concentration camps, slave labour etc, was a materialization of something that western civilisation carries deep within it's soul. Hopefully, it will not happen in such a direct form again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Skipper: but also with concentration camps, slave labour etc, was a materialization of something that western civilisation carries deep within it's soul. Whoa now. This is an issue which has confounded several generations of top-notch historians. To put it so matter-of-factly is vastly oversimplifying the debate. Moreover, it's not one which would be productive to get into on this BBS, so it might be wise to back off that particular line of reasoning in the future... ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Skipper: Now! They might be cooler than Shermans, but hey! Can you say "IS-2"? If it had a cool name like, Red Demon , I think it would be thought of a lot more than it is Seriously, that IS-2 is a MEAN looking bastard! I also love Soviet tank designs. If someone gave me the option of owning a T-72, M-60, or Leo 1, I would take the T-72 hands down They are cheaper and easier to get too, although the damned spare parts are tougher to get a hold of here in the US. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 > so it might be wise to back off that > particular line of reasoning in the > future... okay, I'll heed your advice > If it had a cool name like, Red Demon SU-152 was nicked after the battle of Kursk "Zveroboy" - Beast Killer. Otherwise, nicknaming fighting machines was german habit. Speaking of mean looking, it is my firm belief that the meanest looking bastard in the history of armored warfare, as we know it, was IS-3. As somebody said, it is "aesthetically perfect". [This message has been edited by Skipper (edited 02-14-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Fred Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Sten: Can't you all see that Bates is right? I often feel very offended when people refer to Sweden as "a country in Northern Europe" Since this clearly implies that we are more distanced from the center-of-action than others. I also try not to use the words "floor" and "ceiling" as it would be extremely prejudicial, and would belittle other parts of the room. I think anyone who uses these two terms are just showing their empathy towards the aggressive middle part of the room. - Nurse, did I really get the right pills...? Sten [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 02-14-2001).] LOL! Very refreshing in this way-to-serious post-modernism and PC meets CM discussion. ------------------ Later, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Skipper: Speaking of mean looking, it is my firm belief that the meanest looking bastard in the history of armored warfare, as we know it, was IS-3. As somebody said, it is "aesthetically perfect". Actually, for mean-looking, I'll take the KV-2. Because that is one goddamn big gun on top of it ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 FWIW, they don't mention the different fronts much in Russia so the East Front/West front issue that kicked up so much dust on the board never comes up much. The Russians call WW2 the Great Patriotic War (Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voina) and tend to leave it at that. Which would tend to minimize the contributions of the Allies, you see. I have no statistics to call on (I know how we all love statistics) but my opinion and impression, after having lived in Russia for 5 and a half years and talking to a great many folks there, is that traditional Soviet accounts have left the average Soviet citizen with the impression that not much of interest or significance happened outside the Great Patriotic War, ie. not much happened in Western Europe, not much in Asia. Now, on average, I've never met a more intellectually minded bunch than the Russians. The average citizen there can quote Pushkin -- at length --and they have been known to fill stadiums to hear poetry readings. So this has nothing to do with the people, and everything to do with what their government told them for quite some time. Things are changing now, I imagine. Last time I was in Russia was 1996. Once, in 1979, in Moscow, I was sitting at the diningroom table, setting up a diorama of a battle on a Pacific island, and my Russian teacher asked me what war it was that I was playing at. I told her WW2, and she was rather bemused, cause she knew almost nothing about the fighting in the Pacific. My dad filled her in, and she was amazed. Aparently, none of the histories she had read mentioned the US fighting in the Pacific. But I think its interesting, considering that we are discussing exclusionary language that the Soviets name for their "front" (Great Patriotic War) excludes anyone else (except maybe the Germans) from claiming participation. Cmert' Fashistam!! Terence [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 02-14-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Definitions are as follows: GPW = Eastern Front (ie USSR vs Axis Powers). WW2 = WW2. Indeed, soviet time history textbooks were leaving one with an impression that Western (as I mentioned above, called "Second" in USSR) front was an easy walk, and before Normandy landings nothing significant happened outside GPW at all. I dont know what are they teaching about the war now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von_M Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 I found a new signiture ------------------ CM2: The War between The Peoples of the CCCP, a faction from Poland, a little bit from Finland, at one point Rumanians and Hugarians versus Germans, Finns (for a while anyway), Rumanians (for a while anyway), Hungarians (for a while anyway), Slovaks (for a while anyway), French, Italians (for a while anyway), Croatians, Polish, Spanish (for a while anyway), Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Russians, Ukrainians, White Russians, Don Cossacks, Dutch, Norwegians (a few), Swedes (a few), and some others from Here and There All Fighting on Territory East of the Danube, to the City of Stalingrad, Down to the Carpathian Mountains, and over to The Aagean Sea and Up the Adriatic Coast. -BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Russian tanks are very cool. I think they have an image problem because, as Steve pointed out, they didn't have have cool names like the German tanks. Wasn't the IS-3 nicknamed the "Pike?" (Shchuka?). Who names a tank after a fish? That's not cool. Maybe if they'd given them cool Russian names: like Ivan (T-34), Boris (KV-1), Igor (KV-2), or Piotr (BT series). (But avoid the uncool Russian names, like Vassily or Timofei). Self-propelled guns could have female names, like Natasha or Svetlana. Although Red Demon wasn't bad either -- especially if all of the Russian tanks had an underworld/demonic theme: Asmodeus, Beelzebub, etc. ----------- On another note, someone mentioned mine dogs. I think that it would be too much of a CPU hit to model them realistically. Dogs rely on their sense of smell much more than people, and so CM would need to determine what everything on the battlefield smelled like at every moment, and determine how strong this smell was at the location occupied by the dog. CM would also need to model the fact that diesel smells differently from gasoline, and account for the fact that mine dogs were taught to go under Soviet tanks, which used diesel, rather than the gasoline-burning German tanks. And of course tanks that Hide are in idle, so they won't put out as much smelly exhaust as tanks that are going flat out. So I think CM won't be able to model this with current CPUs being what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Skipper wrote: Speaking of mean looking, it is my firm belief that the meanest looking bastard in the history of armored warfare, as we know it, was IS-3. As somebody said, it is "aesthetically perfect". I agree that the IS-3 was "aesthetically perfect". It is probably the most beautiful machine of death and destruction I have ever laid eyes upon. Yeah, I am a real sucker for "frying pan" turrets, what can I say? But it isn't "mean" The IS-2 or the ISU-152 takes that prize in my opinion. UGLY, and the IS-2 and ISU-152 were certainly UGLY, has a lot to do with being mean. The IS-3 was a "pretty boy" by comparison. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Have we come up with a trophy for the "stupidest statement of the day" yet? Why don't we call this the Bates Award? This award will be given every week to the person who writes the most acinine statement. Bates, take your liberal crap somewhere else and turn off your MTV so they don't further poison your mind. Oh, and one more thing...I can't wait for CM2--The EASTERN Front! ------------------ Youth is wasted on the young. [This message has been edited by Colonel_Deadmarsh (edited 02-15-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: This one is battling with the troll about Dresden for Pointless Thread of the Month honors. Jeff Heidman No, I think it ranks right up there with the thread started by the kid that didn't like seeing "casualty markers" and seeing animated tracers and all, but yet was helping to develope a Civil War boardgame. Boy, M. Bates, you surely have taken a giant leap off the bridge with all those politically correct assholes. Ever watch "Politically IN-Correct with Bill Maher"? One of my favorite late-night shows, BTW. Steve is right on with this one. This is the silliest thread since my old "Fionn me, Fionn me, why don't they get a rope and hang me!" LOL! "Eastern Front" racist? Racist to whom? You gotta have a target people to be racist. Who's your huckleberry? M. Bates, I guess you never heard the term "Jap" before huh? Or "Russkies", or "Hun", or "Jerries", or "Tommies", or "Yanks". PLEASE drop your high-horse, because you don't even have a horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 <HR> BTS: So tell me... what non-country centric term should we can use in place of the Eastern Front? <HR> Hey I thought you did great with "Combat Mission Beyond Overlord". I'm still trying looking for information about the Civil War General Cromwell. And the bit about the colored roses has me utterly baffled. Red = North White=South, or was it the other way round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Maximus, for the sake of everybody here... put a sock in it. Knock off the cursing and posts with NOTHING of value other than kicking someone. Don't you understand that you only make yourself look like a jerk when you spout off like this? (like in the Nazi symbols thread) Sure, Bates took quite a pounding in this thread from a lot of people, but you are the only one in this thread so far that makes such comments a REGULAR part of your postings. Frankly, we are getting sick of having to read your crap (again). Consider this another warning (again). As for what we are planning on calling Combat Mission, we are NOT using "Eastern Front", "Great Patriotic War", "Ostfront", "German-Russo War", etc. Instead, like with Combat Mission - Beyond Overlord, we are planning on going with as NEUTRAL (i.e. fair) title as we can and still have people know what the game is about. Working title is: Combat Mission - Barbarossa to Berlin Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Actually the only other term that *would* make sense would be the "Russian Front". But then again, that would be "racist" to anybody else that took part. Also as Terence said above, in that Russian history books/historians/etc. didn't realise that anything else was going on outside of their "Patriotic War" obviously is *as* racist as Bate's arguemnt that the term Eastern Front is. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 02-15-2001).] [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 02-15-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: Working title is: Combat Mission - Barbarossa to Berlin Steve Man, no offense, but that title, uhh, sucks. IMNSHO, of course. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: Working title is: Combat Mission - Barbarossa to Berlin Steve I like it. Nice to have a theme going; this works well as far as I'm concerned. Can't wait for Combat Mission - Guadalcanal to Tokyo Bay Combat Mission - Beyond Alamein et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 How about CM2 - The Fuehrers Folly Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: Working title is: Combat Mission - Barbarossa to Berlin Steve So, no winter war (Finland Vs Ussr)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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