Bruno Weiss Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I don't think it is something BTS needs to model, and I believe they said so. It might be something for a mod add-on, I've no doubt there will be an outstanding mod available soon after CM2's release with enough little cherub faced babushka's and bosomed bloused bolsheviks to appeal to any of the loneliest of CM2 players. Now, potentially anyway, I could even see player designed scenarios coming out of this, and taking form using say, a stranded truck load of blonde Greta Garbo look-a-like Ninotchka's as the prize. Talk about a rush to the flag. VavavaVoom! BTS has a tight schedule though, pretty optimistic too. CM2 or Bust! (Hehe, no pun intended). CM2 by Fall 2001. Yipee! So, I wouldn't want to see them delayed having to research historically accurate hair curlers. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Just to carry this a little further off-topic... Originally posted by Henri: Just because Eisenhower was screwing his female driver... According to the lady in question, he never actually got around to screwing her, though she admits trying to seduce him on at least two occasions. Seems Ike couldn't get it up. The pressures of his job or something... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Henri: As to Russian women loking like Nikita Krushchev with long hair, I have been to Russia about 8 times, and I can guarantee that is not the case... It was not my intent to impugn Russian womanhood or to deny that quite lovely examples of the same exist. But to be honest, of all the photographs of Soviet women in uniform that I have seen, and that must number in the scores if not hundreds, very, very few would come at all close to what I would describe as "attractive", YMMV. It would not surprise me if the real lookers were kept close to the centers of power and were not risked on the front lines. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: ...I've no doubt there will be an outstanding mod available soon after CM2's release with enough little cherub faced babushka's... Ugh, why must you Americans use the word "babushka's" without knowing what it is? It means Grandmother! Now, Bruno, unless you have a weird fetish we dont know (and frankly dont want to) know about, you would certaintly NOT want to see cherub-faced grandmothers in CM2 Terence, Sorry about taking offense to your first post. Still, i must disagree. It must be a matter of growing up in a country and identifying with its people. Im often able to pick out fellow countrymen in a busy NYC street by their looks, usually. Either way, no point to arguing about it. As I said, matter of upbringing. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Commissar wrote: It means Grandmother! What makes you Russians think everyone else on the forum is another kid? Grandmotherhood can start anywhere after 36 give or take a few, and that's by modern standards. Depending upon as you say, one's upbringing and how soon Motherhood began. Now, everything is relevant ofcourse, but at my age, 36 is spry game, and 46 is able to hold a conversation based in equal commonality of experience where I don't have to explain where Vietnam is, or who won WWII. Now, the way I figure it, them country Rusky gals didn't have much in the way of big city lights back then to cut the rug as a distraction at night, and it do get a lil chilly over there in them cold Russian nights. With no electric blankets a gal had to do sumptin to keep warm. I speck there were infact a good many lil cherub faced babushka's greasin up them Katyusha racks. You know, kinda like the American Rosey the Riviter. Katrina the Katyusher! ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: Commissar wrote: What makes you Russians think everyone else on the forum is another kid? Grandmotherhood can start anywhere after 36 give or take a few, and that's by modern standards. Depending upon as you say, one's upbringing and how soon Motherhood began. Now, everything is relevant ofcourse, but at my age, 36 is spry game, and 46 is able to hold a conversation based in equal commonality of experience where I don't have to explain where Vietnam is, or who won WWII. Uh-huh. Just admit you didnt know what it meant, Bruno! Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: ...distraction at night, and it do get a lil chilly over there in them cold Russian nights. With no electric blankets a gal had to do sumptin to keep warm. The answer for both is Vodka, not Sex! This is Russia, not China - otherwise our population would be as big as theirs. Give Chinese vodka and voila! Population problem solved. In all seriousness though, there were never 40 year old Babushkas. Late 50's yes, 40's no. Russian customs on marriage and the bearing of children were very strict, as they still are. With due exceptions of course This has been another Russo-Culture lesson hosted by The Commissar. Till next time, when during our "Do it yourself" section, we illustrate how to make home-brewn Vodka. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Scipio: ...so if we have female units, will it be possible to rape them (a realistic feature), and how will it influence to combat moral? No, I don't mean this serious. If BTS would really bring female units, how is their battle ability? If it's equal to the male units, it's only a graphical question. If it's lower...I guess our dear Kitty and Tankgirl will use nuclear weapons against BTS. If it's higher...all others will use them. Please do not presume to include me as having of the same "feminist" viewpoints as Tankgirl seems to have displayed here because you're mistaken. I don't mean to insult her by stating that, she's entitled to her opinion and that's fine but don't assume that I am of the same mind just because I'm female. I couldn't care less if there are female 3D graphics in CM2 or not. Does it really matter? I don't think so. Yes, there were female combatants in WWII. Does BTS have to design a new 3D model and graphics to represent them in their game? I wouldn't mind if they did and don't mind that they aren't going to. If they did should they not also model the various ethnic differences in facial features between the soldiers from the Ukraine, Siberia, etc.? Gee, if they don't I guess they'll all be outraged and hurt? And . . . and . . . and . . . And as far as "combat ability being equal to or lower," why are those the only two options? Unless it was a hand-to-hand situation (please no gratuitous sex jokes, I've heard enough in this thread already and actually don't know why it isn't locked yet) why couldn't it be more? There are a lot of women that can shoot as well or better than a lot of men, myself included. As for the female mods I saw someone mention, I've already made them, so now what? In the end what's the difference. I myself, wish this thread and the others like it would just go away. Leave BTS alone, I think they're doing fine. Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The True Blue Aussie Slang Source The Unofficial Vic Bitter Website [This message has been edited by Kitty (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 I just posted another article that mentions the role of women in the Red Army. I had thought it was a Russian article (Hey I only skim this stuff to see if it's worth further reading - gimme a break ), but it's not. I don't think even the Russians would be so "over the top". Whew! It's from India. It's called "The Red Army - Foundations of Strength". It's on my spaceport site. I still hope to find a Russian document on women in their armed forces, but don't hold your breath. Maybe it was no big deal to them - kinda like trying to a restaurant review of McDonalds or Burger King in today's society. But stuff like that is hard to find, and there are other priorities. ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ for military documents written during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Jasper, Another good adrticle, thanks. I think you will be hard pressed to find any article on the war written by Russians, especially if you hope to find an article written at around the time of the war's end. This is for several obvious reasons, like the fact that the war was so huge that small feats, especially those performed by women, were largely forgotten in the overall scheme of things. Another reason might be because the former USSR stored all its war-related (and none war-related) info in padlocked government files, unavailable to the public. Good luck to you anyway, Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 In Israel women are required to serve two years in in the military and men three years. Women serve in ALL branches of the military. And let me tell you many of these attractive women can surely out shoot many of the macho insecure men on this board who disparage wommens' fighting abilites. Also remarks about rape are rude and classless and have no place on this forum. Some of you guys sound like you are 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Commissar wrote: Uh-huh. Just admit you didnt know what it meant, Bruno! Actually I thought it meant, rough translation that is, "little one, or little female". But your right, I have no clue what you Ruskies do over there, night or day. And, I don't know how old you are, it doesn't matter ofcourse, but 50 ain't old by a long shot, any more than 30 is still wet behind the ears. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Wish I could post you guys a photo of my Russian-Ukrainian stepdaughter. Can anyone tell me how to insert one in here? Might dispel a few myths... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Send me the pic. I dont know how to post it, but thats besides the point Seriously though, some people here know how to do this, or can at least tell you. I believe you need to have the pic on a website/uploaded to the web, then you can include the link for the pic with some HTML text. Or somefink. Im clueless Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by Kitty: Please do not presume to include me as having of the same "feminist" viewpoints as Tankgirl seems to have displayed here because you're mistaken. I don't mean to insult her by stating that, she's entitled to her opinion and that's fine but don't assume that I am of the same mind just because I'm female. I couldn't care less if there are female 3D graphics in CM2 or not. Does it really matter? I don't think so. Yes, there were female combatants in WWII. Does BTS have to design a new 3D model and graphics to represent them in their game? I wouldn't mind if they did and don't mind that they aren't going to. If they did should they not also model the various ethnic differences in facial features between the soldiers from the Ukraine, Siberia, etc.? Gee, if they don't I guess they'll all be outraged and hurt? And . . . and . . . and . . . And as far as "combat ability being equal to or lower," why are those the only two options? Unless it was a hand-to-hand situation (please no gratuitous sex jokes, I've heard enough in this thread already and actually don't know why it isn't locked yet) why couldn't it be more? There are a lot of women that can shoot as well or better than a lot of men, myself included. As for the female mods I saw someone mention, I've already made them, so now what? In the end what's the difference. I myself, wish this thread and the others like it would just go away. Leave BTS alone, I think they're doing fine. Kitty Wasn't meant personal. You and Tankgirl are just the only female wargamers I know. You can gimme a payback on the battlefield if you like. That male / female units makes no sense cause there's no difference was excactly what I've already written (or meant) in my other message somewhere above. BTS should better expand the soundmap. I hate that I can't differ the sound of a recoiless gun from a Panzerfaust. [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Not sure I'd introduce some innocent family member to all this, last time someone posted their pic they had to call out the bunko squad. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by The Commissar: Jasper, ...the former USSR stored all its war-related (and none war-related) info in padlocked government files, unavailable to the public. A lot (by no means all, but many) of the formerly secret archives are being opened to historians from Russian and foreign universities. A couple of very controversial books have already come out -- including one on the role that atomic scientists working for the US played in handing over nuclear secrets to the NKVD-- and another one based on formerly secret KGB files. Some of the Red Army archives are part of this as well. I think that Anthony Beevor's (relatively) new book on Stalingrad (it is called "Stalingrad") makes use of these archives, although you ought to look in the book to be sure. Either way, a lot of formerly secret or "closed" material has made it into the public sphere. Its even more public if you happen to be one of the people who reads Russian, since the Red Army was not in the habit of making translations of its documents available. If I were REALLY interested in this stuff, I'd try to track down a guy named Pavel Felgenhauer, who speaks perfect English and is a widely acknowleged expert on the Soviet and Russian armies. He lives in Moscow and talks to the press all the time and is probably reachable by email. If he felt like it, he could probably tell you what material is available, and how to get to it. Personally I don't care enough about this stuff to make a crusade out of it, and I figure the really good stuff will make it to the Barnes and Noble down the street eventually, but there are some driven, smart and highly curious folks here who might want not want to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Over on Tanknet.org, there was a post about a week or two ago from a lad who went to Russia for his holiday. At some parade, or anniversary, he encountered a "Pleasant grandmother, who had won TWO Hero of the Soviet Union awards when serving in an AT unit." I would also point out that Ireland allows women in all combat roles. About 20% of my cavalry squadron were female, and they were every bit as dedicated as the guys. I believe Israel currently has rescinded its policy of allowing women in Infantry and possibly armour roles, leaving, to the best of my knowledge, Ireland the only country currently to officially sanction it in peacetime. NTM ------------------ The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 OK, lets see if this works: http://www.scanna.com/books102/34s102.jpg So much for Kruschev look-alikes...<g> [This message has been edited by gunnergoz (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Trooper, I find it kind of historicaly funny that Ireland still has females in Front line positions. I have several books on Irish history, and all of them expound the ability of Irish women in combat over the centuries. In fact when people came to invade them they made it a point to explain how dangerous the Irish women were. Haven't dug far enough back on The Celts in general, but have found several entrees of Celtic women swordmasters that run schools for training the men. Just a bit of rambeling.... Lorak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by gunnergoz: So much for Kruschev look-alikes...<g> She could be in my squad any time. But seriously, she doesn't look anything like the wartime pics I've seen. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrAlimantado Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 While running the risk of taking a piss on someones nice parade, I must say that the argument against a formal inclusion of female graphical representation is slightly problematic. The best people have been able to come up with it that it does not make any difference for the gameplay, and therefore it should not be included. Initially this seems to hold its own weight, but if you think about it a while, it becomes problematic. If BTS would make all soldiers female, or would just have one generic german uniform, there would be a slight irritation coming from the community, (to say the least). The simple reason is that graphical representation matters for the sake of historical accuracy and for the feel of the gameplay. And if the 800'000 figure mentioned is correct, then there is a decent case for including female grahpical representation in CM2. (I have no way of checking this figure, historical research is not my game.) And even if we assume that only one eight of that figure saw frontline action, it is still a considerable sum of women who saw action. To include them would be a nice gesture towards the female veterans of WWII. Mattias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by Michael emrys: It was not my intent to impugn Russian womanhood or to deny that quite lovely examples of the same exist. But to be honest, of all the photographs of Soviet women in uniform that I have seen, and that must number in the scores if not hundreds, very, very few would come at all close to what I would describe as "attractive", YMMV. It would not surprise me if the real lookers were kept close to the centers of power and were not risked on the front lines. Michael Mikey, have you seen any photos of American, British or Canadian servicewomen of the period? Not a lot of what we call "lookers" today either. Mostly due to what passed for fashion then. It's like looking at the guys in a 1970s Sears catalog with the bellbottoms and wide lapels and afros and thinking "what the hell IS that?" ------------------ http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 DrAlimantado wrote: And if the 800'000 figure mentioned is correct, then there is a decent case for including female graphical representation in CM2. I would disagree for the following reasons. First, while 800,000 is a significant number, it must be taken in context of comparison against the entire number of male soldiers in the Soviet Army. The number might seem large as compared against zero, but what is its representational aspect compared against the total number of Soviet troops. Do the Soviets even know what their total number was for the length of the war? CM is representative of that which has a level of commonality. Yes, there's a story here of a woman sniper, and a story there of a his and her tank team, and a bunch of stories of Soviet Army women. What is the total number of those serving on the front lines, day in and day out, length of the war combat. That is apt to be a much different figure than 800,000. Secondly, as Kitty pointed out, and others have also but to little understanding. If you include women, how then do you exclude the various ethnic partisans, the Cossacks, the Rumanians, the Hungarians, the this, the that, of a hundred things that were there sure enough, but to what degree of commonality, as compared to what standard of exclusion, and based upon who's opinion? I myself would vote for Cossacks over women, potentially over the Rumanians, and Hungarians, though maybe not the partisans. Johhnie over there votes for Rumanians, likes the partisans, but doesn't see the need for Hungarians. And Fred is just all excited and beside himself to get his favorite armored car the Ninclunkorod34 into the game. To attempt to include every single aspect of the German/Soviet war would be a receipt for failure for CM2. So then, exclusion must come into play. Ah, but by what standard of measure do we exclude. Opinion, vote, hearsay, popularity, or by documented scope of commonality. Dealing with front line only, combat troops playing a documented role of significance engaged in daily fighting then used as the generally accepted standard of what went into CM, how would the inclusion of Soviet Army women outweigh the scope of commonality of the Cossacks, Rumanians, Hungarians, or for that matter, any one of half a dozen or more Eastern countries who's populations contributed in a significant combat manner as to the fighting of the war in the resistance, partisan units who at times effected the military operations, certainly the military planning aspects of both Soviet and German forces. The inclusion of Soviet Army women, while a popular notion would have to be done at the exclusion of a good many other very well justified candidates, unless BTS undertakes to include them all. Which, puts us back to a receipt for failure, or shoots the release date of CM2 off into the distant future, or BTS starts hiring a mob of people to do the historical research necessary to ensure historical accuracy for the graphic, operational, and combat aspects of everybody's favorite suggestion for inclusion. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by DrAlimantado: While running the risk of taking a piss on someones nice parade, I must say that the argument against a formal inclusion of female graphical representation is slightly problematic. The best people have been able to come up with it that it does not make any difference for the gameplay, and therefore it should not be included. Initially this seems to hold its own weight, but if you think about it a while, it becomes problematic. If BTS would make all soldiers female, or would just have one generic german uniform, there would be a slight irritation coming from the community, (to say the least). The simple reason is that graphical representation matters for the sake of historical accuracy and for the feel of the gameplay. And if the 800'000 figure mentioned is correct, then there is a decent case for including female grahpical representation in CM2. (I have no way of checking this figure, historical research is not my game.) And even if we assume that only one eight of that figure saw frontline action, it is still a considerable sum of women who saw action. To include them would be a nice gesture towards the female veterans of WWII. Mattias Your argument is political correct. But if we would start this: Shouldn't we include coloured Soldiers? I have no idea how many have fought in western Europe, but surely enough. And how about place a David star on a number of soldiers? What about Red Indians? Shouldn't we place a feather on some soldiers helmets to honor them? Don't get me wrong, I won't make fun of you. For all this you can find reasons, but at last it will all end here: it makes no difference in the gameplay, because it's absolutly unrealistic to think women, men, blacks, white, christian or yewish soldiers would have different abbilitys. So it only will be a graphical feature, which to create costs time and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrAlimantado Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Bruno: My argument was against the idea that Soviet Female soldier should not be represented because it did not make any difference for the gameplay. As you (and Kitty) points out there is the other question whether the number of female soldiers is large enough to warrant the coding effort. As my historical knowledge regarding the specifics of the Eastern Front is severely limited, I am not in a position to even give a half educated opinion. But what I can say is that the argument that if you start including something then everyone else wants their "stuff" on and everything will go downhill from there, is called 'the slippery slope' argument and is used by middle aged philosophy professors who wants to impress on their new undergraduates. The main reason why this argument does not carry any wheight for me is that it utterly simplifies the argument into an all/nothing situation. What is done in circumstances like this is that you make descicions and prioritisations. And as you point out, there may be stronger arguments for including Cossacks, Rumanians, etc. That is fine with me. That which gets the highest priority gets included, and the rest excluded. Judging from comments BTS made about the M16 which did not get into CM, I would guess that coding efforts and commonality are among the standards of measurement. This means that even though female Soviet soldiers were less common than say Cossacks, it ought to be easier to code female soldier as it mostly involves graphical representation and not new weapons, etc. But then I might be utterly wrong on the last bit as I just pulled it out of my ass. Mattias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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