Girl Power - Russian Style

[Bruno Weiss]

I dunno, I thought it all a pretty good abschwung.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by Los:

Here's what a four year Russian infantryman has to say on the subject (from Valera's site)"

Vasyl Bykov says...

Just an alternate opinion so we can seperate propaganda from reality....

Los

Their is varied anecdotal evidence concerning Soviet woeman serving on the frontlines. If interested I'd sugest an search of the archives and visiting the GPW museum as it holds the service record documents & rolls of the KIA etc. One thing that is pretty clear woeman served in all aspects of the Soviet forces Ie, tank crew, pilots, snipers, etc.

Regards, John Waters

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[The Commissar]

PzLeader,

Hmm, good point with the Russians fighting for Nazis. Still, could be taken care of ig you think about it, just have a few Russian faces for Germans.

I realize that female numbers were small...but if you really *wanted* to show their importance in history as some suggested, you *could* do this if you wanted. Not saying this is completely correct, but you could, yes.

Matt,

Really? I didnt realise it. Guess I ought to boot up the game and start counting them faces! Well, variety couldnt hurt much... could it?

Terence,

Whats the defenition of "loopy" according to yourself? If its "stupid" or "false" then you are wrong. If you look at 2 people from different countries, they will display certaint characteristics that are common throughout their countries. Especially if the people of said countries are not diverse in culture and heritage (unlike the U.S. for example), like Russia and Germany.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[karch]

There is a great book on Russian women pilots during WWII.

Night Witches : The Untold Story of Soviet Women in Combat

PO2, the sewing machine biplane that was inspired the title of the book.

fighter pilots including a very famous ace that fought outside Stalingrad

PE2 pilots, the twin engine med bomber/dive bomber jobs that looked like a ME-110

It's a really great book... especially to get a woman-friend interested in Military history.

Scott

[Forever Babra]

According to Alexander Werth (Russia at War), after the displacement of Soviet factories, large numbers of women necessarily became proficient at driving tanks, moving them from the assembly lines of tankograd (or wherever) to the rail flatbeds. As the armoured force expanded in 42 and 43, fewer and fewer qualified drivers could be found, necessitating the enlistment of these women. The assembly lines ultimately proved to be an excellent source of skilled drivers.

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When it's my turn to march up to Glory,

I'm gonna have one HELL of a story...

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Los:

Given the obvious abundance of male "materiel", what was the need to send young and fragile girls under fire?

Fragile??? Have you seen any of these "girls"?

Think: Nikita Khrushchev with long hair.

Michael

[:USERNAME:]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Fragile??? Have you seen any of these "girls"?

Think: Nikita Khrushchev with long hair.

Michael

Why is their Vodka so good? Seen the women?

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by :USERNAME::

Why is their Vodka so good? Seen the women?

Shee-it, Im still laughing at that one m8, good one! :-P

In all reality, ugly people can be found in all countries - just look at the McDonald-eating fatties in the USA or the crooked-teeth "ladies" in the U.K. Don't even get me started on those French !

See? Its easy to stereotype to no end!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Henri]

Originally posted by Los:

Just an alternate opinion so we can seperate propaganda from reality....

Just because Eisenhower was screwing his female driver, it doesn't mean that this was a generalized behavior in other armies.

The Western powers did not hesitate to send their women into factories when it became necessary and most would not have hesitated to send them into combat had it become necessary.

As to Russian women loking like Nikita Krushchev with long hair, I have been to Russia about 8 times, and I can guarantee that is not the case; I can also assure all that not all Russian women are blondes with round faces: one that I know is blond and could pass as a valley girl if she were younger, another has long black hair and is one of the most beautiful woman I have seen, and I have seen a lot.

As to women not being suitable for vicious jobs like snipers, clearly you did not see the interview on Canadian TV last year about a Canadian woman who went to the Middle East where she served as a Sniper killing civilians walking by. She had no ties to the area except for the friend who had taken her there.She said that she did it because she had the talent.She killed something like 100 people, as I remember.Her job was to sit behind a wall and to shoot any passers-by she could spot inside the city.She did it without hesitation and had no regrets.

Henri

[Terence]

Commisar Asked:

"Whats the defenition of "loopy" according to yourself? If its "stupid" or "false" then you are wrong. If you look at 2 people from different countries, they will display certaint characteristics that are common throughout their countries. Especially if the people of said countries are not diverse in culture and heritage (unlike the U.S. for example), like Russia and Germany.

_______________________

I reply: I would never call another person on this board stupid. That would be rude.

I would say, however, that I think this particular idea of yours lacks an anchor in reality, which starkly differentiates it from your many excellent contributions to this board.

I firmly belive, that were I to show 10, 50, 100 or 1000 pictures of Russian and German faces, you would not be able to correctly identify them better than 50 percent of the time (ie. guesswork).

Ill go you one better, and tell you that I am also pretty convinced (after having this trick played on me in college) that I could select a number of pictures of people from Brazil (yes, Brazil) and that you would identify many of them as either Russians or Germans.

I also believe, and this is more to the point, that no one else could do so either and that it doesn't make any difference what the faces in CM II look like, (as long as they aren't blue or green) and that BTS should not waste any time trying to come up with tiny faces that "look" Russian or German.

Finally, I do have to say that I have spent 6 years and some months in Russia and the women there are some of the most beautiful I have ever seen in my life. Personally, I've lived in Russia, Hong Kong, South Africa, the United States and Germany, and travelled a good deal with my family, and working.

I've seen plenty good looking women all over, but for sheer numbers of good looking young women, Moscow wins hands down. The Kruschevs with blond hair are around too, but you stop looking at them pretty quick when the young lovelies come into view.

[Spook]

There's no debate in my eye as to the contribution of women on all sides in WW2. When given the chance in combat, Soviet military women would often rise to the occasion and could do as well as their male counterparts.

There is something I have to add, however. When used in the present day, girl power is applied as a term for "empowerment."

"Girl Power," or "man power" for that matter, however, take a very distant back seat to war power. Bullets & shrapnel don't discriminate.

Take by example the "Night Witch" bomber squadrons. Most of the several hundred decorations given to Soviet women aviators were earned by the Night Witches. But they didn't always operate with impunity.

On one occasion (1942?), a squadron of Soviet PO2 bombers flown by women crews were caught unescorted in daylight by a squadron of German FW 190 fighters. With biplanes against 190's, the results can be easily imagined: the women aviators were slaughtered.

Similar with Soviet women fighter pilots. Some were remarkably skilful, with one woman pilot ace credited with 14 kills. (That's better than the grand majority of US WW2 aces.) But she too was later shot down & killed.

My point again is that women who've served in the military should be recognized and get their due. Hardly has a war passed without some women distinguishing themselves, even on back to the Biblical period. But my concern is that present-day "Girl Power" MIGHT choose constrain to looking at the "glory" of women's past military accomplishments rather than also remembering the hardship, loss & sacrifice of those earlier women for their efforts.

As to adding women faces in CM? For those interested, go for it make it as a mod, but I wouldn't require it of BTS. Without women's voices attached to the figures, it might come off a bit silly anyway. An added user mod of the Soviet soldier wav files would be desirable to go with this.

[Bruno Weiss]

Well I dunno, I'm still waiting on the horsees to get into the game. And who can deny the beautiful and muscular appearance of the critters as well as their overall contribution to the war on all sides, all fronts, and with little or no bias as to political affiliation.

Now, I'm not sure if Russian horses and German horses snout features differed or not. Maybe there were more red horses on the Russian side, and more black ones on the German side. But all in all they served with distinction, valor, and even went so far as to provide a good evening meal when their work was done. "Excuse me Fritz, would you pass another slice of old Flicka over here".

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Scipio]

...so if we have female units, will it be possible to rape them (a realistic feature), and how will it influence to combat moral?

No, I don't mean this serious.

If BTS would really bring female units, how is their battle ability? If it's equal to the male units, it's only a graphical question. If it's lower...I guess our dear Kitty and Tankgirl will use nuclear weapons against BTS. If it's higher...all others will use them.

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Keine Gefangenen!

Scipiobase

[Terence]

Originally posted by Scipio:

.

If BTS would really bring female units, how is their battle ability? If it's equal to the male units, it's only a graphical question.

I think that gang rape of prisoners is beyond the scope of the game, as it would happen after the fighting was over -- which is what your delicate and sensitive humor was getting at, I suppose. (Is anyone still wondering why there are so few women who play wargames?)

And I think that in the Partisans thread, BTS has said that if anyone wants to add women mods, they are welcome to, but that the game will not be changed to model different fighting ability of possible women soldiers.

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Bruno Weiss]

Terence wrote:

Is anyone still wondering why there are so few women who play wargames?

I wasn't to begin with. Always attributed it to sociological and physical traits as programmed through the Deoxyribonucleic Acid genes specifying centric priorities of family child rearing as well as reproductive functions as taking first priority over the more male focused sociological traits of hunting and protection. Not to mention the Dick and Jane books (for which every culture possess some version), from recently bygone days which taught them to play with dolls.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Terence]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Terence wrote:

I wasn't to begin with.

Bruno,

I am very dissapointed in you.

First you don't want to win victories for feminism in the partisan thread, and now it appears you don't spend time wondering about gender dispersal issues with regard to computer based military genre entertainment???!?!?

Something is very wrong!!!

Terence

ps. I just meant that making _jokes_ about gang raping women soldiers was unlikely to go over well with any women who do find this thread. I don't think the subject is beyond discussion, thought and I wouldn't mind an explanation of how prevalent it was and what measures the Soviet army at the time took etc.

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Guest TOBRUK]

Hey, Terence!

Pry your mind away from carnal thoughts and send me a turn

-T

[Guest Big Time Software]

Henri,

Just a nitpick here:

The Western powers did not hesitate to send their women into factories when it became necessary and most would not have hesitated to send them into combat had it become necessary.

Not quite true. The Nazi regime was VERY slow to utilize females for any sort of labor. They only started to do this when it was clear that there was absolutely no other choice (some would argue long AFTER this was obvious). They first exhausted the supply of those too young, old, or disabled to fight for these tasks. Then, when things got really bad, they had to move such males into military positions. This left them little choice.

The Germans only started using females in large numbers when it was clear that slave labor couldn't fill in all the gaps. I mean, you can stick just about any warm body into a factory (in theory), but would you trust a Russian soldier or a political prisoner with running a rail schedule or manning a flak gun? Obvious answer

Steve

[Terence]

Originally posted by TOBRUK:

Hey, Terence!

Pry your mind away from carnal thoughts and send me a turn

-T

I swear i sent it twice on sunday (zipped, even) and it bounced back twice. Then I sent you a note asking if you got the turns and that bounced too. Are msn and CS fighting?

tn

(posting here cause now im not sure if your email works)

[Jasper]

My internet connection today is dreadful, but I did manage to post the "A German Account of Changes in the Red Army" article on the 'Spaceports' site before it went south. If my 'signature' block is messed up the URL is http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/

I'll try and get the Russian article posted tomorrow. To set expectations - these articles are NOT about women in combat - but merely make mention of it. (And a bunch of other interesting stuff!)

I suspect that - like this board - the overall impact of women in combat far exceeded their numbers.

Example: How do we (aka the Germans) think that all the pilots of the the 'glide bombers' mentioned by BTS are women? Here's what I suspect: That one aircraft engine won't restart or the Germans manage to shoot one of them down. The body found in the wreckage is that of a woman. So after that all the 'glide bombers' are women.

Male or Female, to knowingly shut down the engine of your aircraft over enemy territory would take a great deal of courage. One real good idea that I read about would be for ground attack aircraft to attack flying towards their own lines. In addition to more likely attacking from the rear - you had a greater chance of crashing landing your aircraft on your own side of the lines should it be necessary. But with no power - and at night! Wow.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Terence:

I just meant that making _jokes_ about gang raping women soldiers was unlikely to go over well with any women who do find this thread. I don't think the subject is beyond discussion, thought and I wouldn't mind an explanation of how prevalent it was and what measures the Soviet army at the time took etc.

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-30-2001).]

Everyone takes the shoe that fits him (an old German wisdom). When I said that I don't men it serious, I don't want to say that I mean as a joke (I had used smileys in this case).

I only want to bring in a very strange though, cause IMO spend the people to much time with this IMO secondary question. If someone want to have women in CM, okay, make a mod. The point is : female soldiers wouldn't add something to the gameplay, cause they must have the same abilitys like men, otherwise would the following discussion outnumber all peng-threats together.

[This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Terence]

Originally posted by Scipio:

The point is : female soldiers wouldn't add something to the gameplay, cause they must have the same abilitys like men, otherwise would the following discussion outnumber all peng-threats together.

B]

That is very true. It would ignite a storm of controversy.

And since we have lots of arguments already, I'm glad that we will not be adding another one.

[Silver Stars]

while i am enjoying the discussion and the presentation of info on women in the soviet army, as to the discussion as to whether women should be modelled in the game:

If there are no African-Americans in Combat Mission 1, then why should there be women in combat mission 2?

'nuff said.

p.s. dont throw in that "men's capabilities vs. women's capabilities" arguement.showing them unequal would make BTS look sexist.

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"Life is pain. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something."

[Guest Mikey D]

If you want women in CM2 may I suggest civilians?

In town-to-urban warfare The game could have 3 sides- the Allies, the Axis, and random Civilians. However the game is played the AI always plays the civilian side. Never very many, perhaps always paniced. Each civilian you kill reduced your overall score?

Just a thought.

[Terence]

Originally posted by Silver Stars:

while i am enjoying the discussion and the presentation of info on women in the soviet army, as to the discussion as to whether women should be modelled in the game:

I don't think there is any discussion on whether women soldiers should be modeled in the game, or if there is, its not one that makes a difference.

My understanding of the firm BTS position is that there is no difference between men and women on the battlefield that can't be modeled already with the troop quality indicators: ie: conscript, green, regular, vet, crack, elite.

Presumably, there could be excellent women soldiers, like the snipers who won medals and the tank drivers who were mentioned before and lousy ones as well.