Maximus Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 OK, CM1 is obviously a 20m x 20m square tile. IMHO, this limits the subtleness of sloping terrain features in the game. For CM2, I suggest 10m x 10m square tile. This would allow to better simulate ditches and tank "traps". However if it would be too complicated to code in, then oh well. I can live with 20m tiles. But if it can be done without too much problem, then I'd say that that would make for more realistic landscapes. Granted the Russian Steppes are pretty flat. But you know what I mean. ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 I agree with Maximus. There was a thread around New Year's how a 10 x 10 texture size would be more realistic modeling for city battles, which will be an important part in CM2. You just cant insert a lot of minor details into town battles if the texture sizes remain as they are. I would think this would be a bit of a coding challenge. Aww crap. Hope it works out, though. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Unfortunately I believe that the 10m x 10m tile size will probably have to hold out until CMII (the engine re-write). I believe it will be a bit of a coding chore to put in and it could have a severe performance affect on LOS calculations. I recall Steve mentioning that CM2 would be a partial re-write of the CM engine, but not to the full extent that CMII will be. Admittedly the 10m x 10m would be a fantastic change for CM2, especially in regards to urban environments, etc. I guess we'll just have to wait patiently for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I would have to concur with Maximus here that a 10X10 tile would provide a significant enhancement to the game ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 Well, whether or not a 10x10 tile makes it into CM2, I can live with whatever BTS chooses to do. I was just throwing out the suggestion to get some feedback. If it has to wait to CMII then that's fine. But by then, a 5x5 tile would probably be the norm. Because look at it this way, by the time CM4 even comes out, there will probably be 128MB video cards out and Lord knows what else. BUT whatever is feasible for CM2, I will live with it. ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-29-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I too would love this, but I don't think it will happen for several reasons. The biggest being that a significant amount of the code would have to be re-written. For example, big buildings would occupy 4 tiles instead of 1. LOS calculations would have to be altered...I'm sure there are tons of other changes which we can't even grasp that would have to occur to make that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Originally posted by Pak40: For example, big buildings would occupy 4 tiles instead of 1. LOS calculations would have to be altered...I I think buildings have to be rewritten anyway - Stalingrad anyone? Steve has said somewhere that they want to move to smaller tiles but would see whether it was feasible, or somefink. Best do a search, there has been an official statement. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Hi Guys, Id have to check with Charles, but my guess is that it will probably have to wait for the rewrite of the engine. My thinking is not because it is a complex code change (though it probably is ), but more importantly what you would be effectively doing is doubling the amount of polygon in a CM map. If you take into account that battles in CM2 will probably be over longer ranges this would be a significant increase in poly counts. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Id be interested in what the envisioned CM2 typical machine will be. What does BTS think this design parameter will be? What did they design CMBO for? pentium II? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Originally posted by KwazyDog: My thinking is not because it is a complex code change (though it probably is ), but more importantly what you would be effectively doing is doubling the amount of polygon in a CM map. If you take into account that battles in CM2 will probably be over longer ranges this would be a significant increase in poly counts. Dan In fact, you are quadrupling the amount of polygons. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 Yeah that's true. I thought about that, but the ramifications really didn't sink in until argie and Dan said it So taking that into account, are we still talking "flat" land obsticles like wheat, bushes, rocks? Or will that stuff be like CMBO trees, such as the way the Desert Rats Total Conversion Mod is doing? ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Although a 10x10 tile size would be very nice I don't think it will be possible to implement. What I do think needs to be done though is more variations of existing tiles and many more new ones added. For example I would like to see a lot more variations in buildings. Battlefields would look so much better with more combinations. Also buildings of various sizes and shape are needed in addition to multi-level ones. Another thing that would add a lot to the game would be combination tiles such as, Wall in woods Building surrounded in trees Half wheat/half open,wooded...etc. (This would basically eliminate those jagged looking fields set at angles to the map and ones along curved and angled roads) If possible a cut-tile would make map making easier. Basically it would make the surface of the tile level no matter what the elevation to either side. This would be used for roads that ran through uneven and hilly ground. The edge of the tile could curve sharply up or down at the edge of the tile to meet its neighbor. While I am ranting about tiles I have a few more suggestions concerning terrain. 1) would be to allow transparency of buildings that you could see out from. As it stands if you have a city map it is difficult to get a good view of the action of troops in the buildings. 2) is the spreading or simulation of fire and blazes. It would be cool and more realistic if the game only showed smoke coming from a location for a determined amount of time before it became a full blaze. All this could be susceptible to weather conditions and the type of terrain. e.g.. You torch a large bldg. and a plume of smoke rises warning of the impending doom. But it is not until 2 turns later that the fire graphics sprout from the building. The same could be applied to any burnable area. (is burnable a word?) 3) would 'straighten out' water tiles set at angles on the map creating a more fluid river. Now on to suggested new tiles; Creeks Ditches (regular and A-T) Farm out-buildings (Barns and Silo's) Partially destroyed Buildings Cemetery (don't know how hard it would be to show the headstones though but at least a squad could enjoy the benefits of them) Rail Bridges Rooftop Location Destroyed rail tiles (not that big of a deal but could be cool) K.Oed Vehicles ? (used sparingly of course) Airfields Some town tiles; Rubble strewn streets High Walls Rail-way crossings Factories (massive complexes) Large Building with alley (One that takes up more than one tile and creates a tight alley when joined with similar tile) Fountain w/ paved Cellars (ok I might be dreaming with this one but oh,it would be so nice. These are a few that I could think of and I am sure there are others that I am missing that would greatly increase the overall gaming experience of the CM saga. I apologize for the format of this dribble but I was in a hurry while I wrote it. P.S. BTS, can you elaborate yet as to how CM2 will simulate interior areas of larger buildings?Will individual walls be shown? vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Oh and I forgot the peasant shack that was so common on the east front, whatever the name for them was. Shanty? vs [This message has been edited by von shrad (edited 01-29-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Not to mention sewers and tunnels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 ...and churches with 2 stories to simulate the steeple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 SS_PanzerLeader wrote: I would have to concur with Maximus here that a 10X10 tile would provide a significant enhancement to the game However, the 20x20 tiles have one advantage, at least for me. WWII-era Finnish topographical maps are on 1:20000 scale, so 1 mm in the map corresponds exactly to 1 terrain tile. (Yes, I know, I know, 10x10 tiles wouldn't really change that and would allow more accurate terrain since in particular roads are difficult to draw correctly) - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 TSS, you're such a laugh! You and rexford should battle it out and one of you crowned uber-grog I think 20x20 is ok for now, but what i would like to see is clusters of things on a 20x20. How about two small houses, or three or four big houses with a street, ala a town, stuff like that, get more clutter on those tiles PeterNZ ------------------ "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious" - Oscar Wilde "Don't F*CK with Johnny Cash!" - Chupacabra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aka PanzerLeader Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Before they add enhancements like that they should fix the "Ghost Tank" syndrome, IMHO. Then they could start adding to the game. Better make sure the cake is perfect before adding the icing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Here's a question thats not entirely related, but caught my fancy... Von shrad mentioned fires growing with time. Well, what about fires spreading in densly wooden areas or close-together buildings? It happens in real life, and I dont think it would be too hard to model for CM2. It would certaintly play a crucial role in CM2's town battles, like Stalingrad, the infamous "Infernal Cauldron" reference being a key factor here. Fires spread through the city and added to the chaos of it all. Would be quite a challenge predicting which buildings the fire will consume! Opens doors to strategic fire-setting to prevent and enemy from using, say, a certaint city block. Oh yeah, and did I mention buildings finally collapsing into rubble after burning for a while? Now I did. I'll shut up and await replies Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I feel like a newbie asking this, but what's the difference between CM2 and the aforementioned CMII? Does CMII refer to a newer code (from CM2) being retroactively applied to CMBO? Sorry, I've run out of anachronisms. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Originally posted by gaffertape: I feel like a newbie asking this, but what's the difference between CM2 and the aforementioned CMII? CM2 - Russia, based on current engine. CMII - engine rewrite sometime in the future. CM2 may or may not be backwards compatible, CMII most likely not. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 The Commissar wrote: Oh yeah, and did I mention buildings finally collapsing into rubble after burning for a while? Well, that depends on the meaning of "while". Practically all buildings will burn for hours (large ones for days) before collapsing, way too long to be included in CM scenarios. Similarily, in the usual conditions a fire doesn't spread that quick. (But don't try to outrun a grass fire downwind during the dry season). - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: CM2 - Russia, based on current engine. CMII - engine rewrite sometime in the future. So CM3 could also be written CMII(1). CM4 would be CMII(2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 aka PanzerLeader, what is this 'Ghost Tank' that you speak of? vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Let's not start speculating on CM IV and V. If CM II is a year and a half down the road, BTS may find themselves competing with unexpected competition from 'SuperWargame X' (like Microsoft did when CM showed up). Then the company's 5 year plan may simply evaporate! By the way. I kinda like the old 20x20 tiles, especially if we're expecting to have Tiger and Stalin heavy tanks exchanging blows a max range on the open stepps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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